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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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 Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: racism |
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It's hard to believe that some people on this forum condone and even respect racism in Japan. They ask what's the big deal and they question the purpose of speaking out against it.
They speak out against it for their children. Don't you realize that English teachers and members of the military are not the only foreigners in Japan? I am friends with some Brazilian Japanese in Tokyo and they are not here to pay off student loans or to fund their next jaunt to SE Asia. They are going to buy houses here, raise families here, settle here. Any act of racism is going to impact their children's future in the only country they call home.I know you are going to say that a hostess bar or a sento has little effect on a child. But allowing any place to exist with exclusionary policies might just allow a shop or a swimming pool to post the NO FOREIGNERS sign. That has already happened! What about when these children grow up and want to buy a house, vote, maybe even run for office. Where do you think the exclusion stems from?
Japan is NOT an insular country anymore. Consider all the Japanese students who study abroad. Think about all the Japanese companies with branches overseas. Consider all the Japanese tourists who travel in foreign countries. I have discussed this topic with my Japanese friends and they are embarassed and ashamed that racism exists in their country. That you, a foreigner, condone and even respect racism is astonishing to me. I know you want to fit in to the society that you are temporarily living in, but please NOT at the expense of the people who are here for the long run.
Dove |
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J-Pop
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 215
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: racism |
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| dove wrote: |
It's hard to believe that some people on this forum condone and even respect racism in Japan. They ask what's the big deal and they question the purpose of speaking out against it.
They speak out against it for their children. Don't you realize that English teachers and members of the military are not the only foreigners in Japan? I am friends with some Brazilian Japanese in Tokyo and they are not here to pay off student loans or to fund their next jaunt to SE Asia. They are going to buy houses here, raise families here, settle here. . . . That you, a foreigner, condone and even respect racism is astonishing to me. I know you want to fit in to the society that you are temporarily living in, but please NOT at the expense of the people who are here for the long run.
Dove |
Dove,
I'm somewhat hesitant to respond to your post--as I don't want to come across as being confrontational or argumentative. That is not my intent.
However, it is not clear whether you are responding to (criticizing) specific comments made in posts here, or whether you are being critical of an overall--perceived--attitude on the part of some forum members.
I personally have not read any posts (yet) that could be construed as "racist," especially not in the Japan section. Perhaps I haven't yet come across them? I am still somewhat new to this forum.
So--are there specific posts (I'm guessing there are) to which you object?
Taking this topic of racism in a (slightly) different direction: over the years I've had many friends from Japan, Korea, China, Singapore, Indonesia, Taiwan & Hong Kong (& Latin American countries, too). It seems that, overall, racism is alive & well in almost every Asian country. It seems to be part of their history & culture & mindset.
Also, in my time of teaching in Japanese public schools, I noticed & was told of a "pecking" order (racist?) among Japanese-Brazilians and Japanese-Peruvians--for example. I was present in one (elementary) school when a Japanese-Peruvian boy was physically assaulted by a Brazilian-Japanese, as the Peruvians (I was told) were considered to be "lower on the totem pole" than were the more established Brazilian-Japanese. (Part of the reason, I was told, is because most Peruvians' skin color is typically "darker"!!  )
My point: racism is not easily categorized & it is certainly not limited to only one group. It is something that is common nearly everywhere in the world.
Also, in my experience, though Japanese people may seem--while in your presence--to be "embarassed" by "racism," it may actually be their way of being polite; most Japanese that I've been friends with, don't really know how to handle criticism of their country--especially if the criticism is coming from a "westerner."
All this, of course, is only my opinion & (again) I don't intend these comments to be (necessarily) negative, or mean-spirited.  |
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fromCanada
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 48
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: racism |
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| Quote: |
It seems that, overall, racism is alive & well in almost every Asian country. It seems to be part of their history & culture & mindset.
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J-Pop,
What do you mean by "mindset"? I'm Asian and I felt somewhat offended by the above quote...probably because you are generalizing an entire region based on a few people you know....ouch. |
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J-Pop
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 215
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:06 am Post subject: Re: racism |
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| fromCanada wrote: |
| Quote: |
It seems that, overall, racism is alive & well in almost every Asian country. It seems to be part of their history & culture & mindset.
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J-Pop,
What do you mean by "mindset"? I'm Asian and I felt somewhat offended by the above quote...probably because you are generalizing an entire region based on a few people you know....ouch. |
1. I agree, it is a generalization.
2. I apologize if I offended. I tried to make clear the intent was not to offend. As noted, I was hesitant to respond to dove's post, didn't wanna "start anything," so to speak.
3. Also, I tried to be clear that, IMO, "racism" is not limited to any one "group" (Asians, or others, including "white" people).
4. "Mindset," what I was referring to is my understanding (perhaps, not accurate, but I think it is fairly close) that one of the most important underlying cultural influences in most Asian countiries is Confucianism. The idea that there is a clearly defined familial & social "pecking order." That is, an order where all are assigned their place, some are more important than other, and more.
5. Finally, I personally think there are some things in life worse than racism. No one likes to be the "outsider," but we all do have cognitive categories made up of "in" and "outs."
fromCanada:
Do you not agree that racist-type thinking is prevalent (typical) in Asia? Next time, it's your turn . . .  OK?
Actually, this is one of the comments I remember hearing--often--in my TESOL graduate classes. About 60% (more?) of my classmates were from outside the USA, primarily from Asia. It was a large class too!
Thus, these were mainly comments from Japanese & Koreans (some from Taiwan & China, too) for example. They (not me) said they were raised to think in a racist manner of each other. They were (they said) truly shocked to meet someone from the other nationality & to discover they liked each other! So, what's up with that?
So, I actually got this information from my Asian friends (born & raised in Asia, especially my Japanese friends, ones I met at uni., then hooked up with in Japan when I went there to teach. ) Too, some of my thinking (but not all) is influenced on my experience of living in Japan.
Lastly, uh . . . I've read a few books, too.
For example (but not limited to): "Japan's Minorities: The Illusion of Homogeneity" (ed. by Michael Weiner), "Education in Contemporary Japan" (Okano & Tsuchiya), "Japan's High Schools" (Rohlen), "Understanding Japanese Society" (Hendry), "The Clash: U.S. Japanese Relations throughout History" (La Feber), "Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War ll" (Dower), "Learning to Bow: Inside the Heart of Japan," (Feiler).
I hope that helps answer your question. And, again, I sincerely feel bad that I offended. Please accept my apology   |
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fromCanada
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 48
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:41 am Post subject: Re: racism |
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Oops..please see below.
Last edited by fromCanada on Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fromCanada
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 48
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:42 am Post subject: Re: racism |
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Pop asks me:
| Quote: |
| Do you not agree that racist-type thinking is prevalent (typical) in Asia? |
I would say racism is there, like it is in any country in the world. Prevalent or typical? I don't know, I haven't been to every single country in Asia and polled everyone (  ). Seriously, there is plenty of racism in every country - both direct and indirect.
By the way, you don't know really know what racism is until you've experienced it. |
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J-Pop
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 215
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:55 am Post subject: Re: racism |
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| fromCanada wrote: |
. . . .
By the way, you don't know really know what racism is until you've experienced it. |
1. Agree.
2. I have experienced it.
2a. Mi madre es una Latina. (My mom is Latin.)
--Thus, the permanent (nice) tan.
2b. My dad is a "white man." 
--Thus, the green (hazel) eyes. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It's hard to believe that some people on this forum condone and even respect racism in Japan. |
I have to ask the same question as J-pop. What examples of this are you responding to?
| Quote: |
| Japan is NOT an insular country anymore. |
I'm afraid this is too sweeping a generalization to be accurate.
1. There are still huge sections of Japan that have never encountered a foreigner face to face. Just ask any JET ALT.
2. Many Japanese who study or work abroad are still "debriefed" on foreign ways of thinking or even delegated minor tasks upon their return before they are permitted to re-enter the full-time business world.
3. Yes, Japanese people travel all over the world, but a huge number of them do so only on package tours where they are not required to mingle with the locals and therefore use local languages.
4. Watch Japanese TV news. How much foreign coverage is there? Practically nil. (No fair talking about super-major events like the war in Iraq.)
5. International patents are fewer in Japan than in most other countries, as a result of the Japanese attitude toward isolation.
6. An insular attitude might be inferred from the Japanese refusal to admit Koreans born here generations ago are indeed Japanese citizens. Many Koreans have to hide their identities, too, in order to exist equally. (I work with a Korean teacher who has adopted a Japanese name.)
| Quote: |
| I know you are going to say that a hostess bar or a sento has little effect on a child. But allowing any place to exist with exclusionary policies might just allow a shop or a swimming pool to post the NO FOREIGNERS sign. That has already happened! What about when these children grow up... |
And, just how would you disallow such practices? I don't think people (Japanese and foreigners alike) actually condone such discrimination, but aside from the famous Hokkaido bathhouse court case, nobody has ever really taken this issue to such a legal level. The anti-discrimination policies in Japan are toothless; there are no penalties for posting such signs unless you risk notoriety and expenses in taking this to court. What would you like people to do, Dove, when they are refused entry into a bar or bathhouse because of some NO FOREIGNERS sign? And, just how effective do you think that action would be? (I'm not saying it's knuckling under to such attitudes or even agreeing with them, but by and large it is probably a futile gesture.)
| Quote: |
| That you, a foreigner, condone and even respect racism is astonishing to me. |
Who exactly are you referring to? And to what act(s) of racism? |
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homersimpson
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 569
Location: Kagoshima
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Glenski wrote:
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| 1. There are still huge sections of Japan that have never encountered a foreigner face to face. Just ask any JET ALT. |
This is true, especially in rural prefectures where many towns have no train service and only occasional (and infrequent) bus service.
| Quote: |
| 2. Many Japanese who study or work abroad are still "debriefed" on foreign ways of thinking or even delegated minor tasks upon their return before they are permitted to re-enter the full-time business world. |
And some Japanese businessmen are permanent overseas employees, bouncing from one foreign assignment to another.
| Quote: |
| 3. Yes, Japanese people travel all over the world, but a huge number of them do so only on package tours where they are not required to mingle with the locals and therefore use local languages. |
Again, dead on. The only place I saw Japanese people intermingling was in Hawaii, which to a large extent is Japan-lite (many signs in Japanese, Japanese spoken by hotel/restaurant employees, tons of Japanese restaurants, etc.).
| Quote: |
| 4. Watch Japanese TV news. How much foreign coverage is there? Practically nil. (No fair talking about super-major events like the war in Iraq.) |
Even the domestic coverage is fairly thin. |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:05 am Post subject: racism |
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I was referring to a reply in "No Foreigners Allowed" , one of the later replies from Kovac. Sorry, should have made it clearer.
Dove |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:32 am Post subject: racism |
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My main point in writing was to argue with Kovac's point that people who protest racism in Japan seem to have an axe to grind.
Yes, I know that a large number of Japanese people have never encountered a foreigner. But I could argue the same about pockets of the population in the USA. I also know that racism exists all over the world. Somehow, that doesn't justify allowing blatant acts of racism to continue.
I know that we might not be directly affected by a NO FOREIGNER sign in a sento or in a hostess bar. And I don't even know the course of action to take to protest such a sign. But the ones who are protesting need to be heard and supported.
I have been in a restaurant in Tokyo and while there was no sign that said "No Foreigners" ,I was ignored.I couldnt get service. A few years back in the USA Dennys was accused of ignoring African American customers. There were protests and lawsuits. I wish I had had the guts to complain in Tokyo. Maybe the fact that I didn't complain gives me no right to even write about racism. But I will support those who do protest something as wrong (and in some cases illegal) as racism is.
Dove |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:13 am Post subject: |
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My main point in writing was to argue with Kovac's point that people who protest racism in Japan seem to have an axe to grind.
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Dove,
Kovac was referring to only one person as far as I can understand. He makes clear mention of Arudo Debito's web site and "crusade" against racism and discrimination. (AD is sometimes known as the Hokkaido Crusader because of his strong attitudes in these matters, and apparently Kovac doesn't take to it so well.)
One of kovac's statements deserves some mention, though. He wrote (addressed to AD):
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| As you say on your site you are married with children, have land, a home and a job.What else do you want? |
I guess kovac figures that wanting as close to a 100% discrimination-free life as possible is not worth the hassles that AD is going through. More likely, kovac might figure that AD just goes over the edge a little too far (and in some ways, even AD's wife agrees with that). Just my opinion. |
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J-Pop
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 215
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:48 am Post subject: AD? |
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| Glenski wrote: |
. . . .
One of kovac's statements deserves some mention, though. He wrote (addressed to AD):
| Quote: |
| As you say on your site you are married with children, have land, a home and a job.What else do you want? |
I guess kovac figures that wanting as close to a 100% discrimination-free life as possible is not worth the hassles that AD is going through. More likely, kovac might figure that AD just goes over the edge a little too far (and in some ways, even AD's wife agrees with that). Just my opinion. |
Interesting.
I recently heard an interview--on NPR (National Public Radio) I think--with AD, the one Glenski refers to as the "Hokkaido Crusader." (Had not heard the term before, I like it)
And . . . I can't help but notice that HC, the Hokkaido Crusader, is from the same part of the world as you . . . Glenski.
Do you . . . uh, happen to know the Crusader--HC--personally? I mean, living in the same city and all. Too, you both teach at universities in Sapporo, yes?
If my memory serves me correctly, Sapporo is the third largest city in Japan (second to Osaka)? I'm sure there are several (many?) universities in Sapporo . . . .
The Crusader---AKA AD--sounds like an interesting, knowledgeable, smart & "lively" sort of guy. Whaddya think, Glenski?
Just curious (if your separate paths have ever, uh, crossed).
P.S. Sorry to get off topic. If necessary, a new thread can started. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:10 am Post subject: |
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And then there's the opposite: positive discrimination.
How many of us have had the privilege to be on the receiving end of this?
[from people who don't even know us]: "You're from the West, you are great, you are wealthy, you are left handed, you are intelligent."
Or something to that effect. |
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Dr.J
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 304
Location: usually Japan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Positive discrimination...shhh! Don't rock the gravy train!
I have no problems with Brazilian/korean/chinese people wanting more respect and rights in Japan. This Debito guy...
I don't know, I just think, if I was him and I wanted to get rid of racism in Japan, then maybe I would go for the heart - expose the buraku, korean, chinese discrimination instead of this. Maybe I'm just offended by his attempt to take on the mantle of 'race crusader' - he compares himself to Rosa Parks, but racism in Japan is not like racism in 1950's America.
Maybe he just really wants to go to that Onsen? |
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