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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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nickpellatt wrote: I think there are other things that are highly desirable, but how do you measure simple things like patience, enthusiasm, commitment etc? Especially when you are applying for a job overseas, because maybe they cant interview you.
cangringo responded:
By getting references perhaps?? Just a thought but maybe more employers should try that. Education does not mean you have these things...I suppose it depends what one's education was in. I could have a degree in statistics, doesn't mean I can handle a teaching position. The fact that employers will accept a degree in anything really bugs me. |
There are several issues in the above exchange.
Getting references.
Let's say an employer has a choice between a fresh college grad with no experience teaching and a non-degree holder with no experience teaching. Assume that the country permits non-degreed people to work as teachers. Who is he going to hire?
If the degreed person is educated in something related to teaching or EFL/ESL, it likely that (barring anything else) they are the one who will be chosen. If the degree is non-teaching related, I would have to say it depends on the country.
If references are requested, it all depends on the spin that the references put on them that may determine who is selected. Both people may have KMart or McDonalds experience, but the degreed person can also rely on at least one person from his university to help out, too. That is an edge. Remember, if all other things are equal, this is the only thing to tip the scales. If you start adding other components to this argument (applicant's personality or ability to B.S. through an interview, for example), you are creating a plethora of hypotheticals that can't be used here.
Having an education does not mean one has references, true. It also doesn't preclude that a person lacks them. Four years (or more in some cases) is a long time to go through summer without some form of income (leading to a reference). And, who's to say a reference has to come from work? Character references can be from many sources.
Next point from above is curious to me. cangringo seems to have vented now about whether the major is even relevant. Some will argue that certain non-teaching majors could have some elements to them that lend to a cleverly worded cover letter, resume, or interview answer in order to suggest an ability related to teaching. (In some fields, for example, you might be asked to assist a lab tech, or casually tutor someone, etc. and try passing that off as "training people". Same thing outside academia. Call it what you like. Stretching the truth, white lie, or B.S.ing. It's all fair game, and in some countries like Japan, a lot of that just isn't worth trying unless you are desperate, IMO. I have proofread dozens of resumes, mostly from non-teaching majors, and one of the weaknesses that I point out is to NOT try BSing your way through with such tactics. You might get away with that in your home country, but in places like Japan, I think you will find the employers are just looking for a warm body who will satisfy immigration requirements (and their own for the position). To say that training your fellow co-workers at WalMart is teaching experience is pointless. Same goes for monitoring the computer lab and helping out students there at night. Or explaining to customers various things. I've seen these and more.
cangringo, you are right in saying that "The fact that employers will accept a degree in anything really bugs me. " I can say that, too, but then I have to stop in mid-thought and realize that I got in on that sort of requirement. Yes, I have bachelor's and master's degrees unrelated to teaching and ESL/EFL, but I got hired here to teach. Why? I can only speculate, of course, but part of the reason was that immigration requires the degree. ANY degree. Another part was that I'd shown some actual teaching experience (not English, but still in formal classrooms and in corporate settings). There were other factors, too, but I'll stick to the topic. I got here (and stayed) without a teaching-related degree. Am I upset over others who have done the same? Sometimes. All 6 of us who worked at a private HS had non-teaching degrees, but you know what? They were all degrees nevertheless! What's more, all of those people worked very hard in their time in Japan to earn their teaching status. Not all degreed people do, and THOSE are the people I would be more upset over. You can complain all you want about immigration requirements (it's been done to death here and on other forums), but when it comes down to it, you cannot change those requirements, so what do you have left? Degreed people who are dedicated or not, whether their degrees are in teaching fields or not.
(Yes, there are some exceptions, like working holiday visa holders, dependent visa holders, spouse visa holders, etc., but let's stay on topic.) |
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FuzzX
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think the fact that my husband and I travelled her together with our dog in tow should show that we aren't here to sleep with local women and just fund our travelling. We are in this for the long haul. Of course we do plan to drink a lot of beer but ...it's Mexico...beer is cheap.
I have to disagree I sleep with a local woman and its great, I think thats probably why I�ll be here for the long haul. See you guys in Vallarta 
My only problem with people spouting ��ou need a degree to teach� or �you should have a degree � is that its bullshit. The only thing a degree says about a teacher is that he spent 4 more years as a student than I did. |
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Sheikh Inal Ovar
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 1208
Location: Melo Drama School
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| fuzzy wrote: |
| The only thing a degree says about a teacher is that he spent 4 more years as a student than I did. |
Firstly, fuzzy, college isn't high school, so it's not merely an extension of one's student life ... if you did 4 years in Japan and so did a friend, but you returned home while your friend moved on to a different country for 4 years, did your friend experience the same as you but simply 4 more years of it?
Do you not think, fuzzy, that those four years the college graduate spends reading, writing and discussing topics in tutorials are going to develop his native language skills at all ...
Now before you pipe in ... we know that this doesn't mean that everyone that studied for a college degree has more developed formal language skills than everyone that didn't study for one ... it's obvious ... no educated person would think otherwise ... but even you, fuzzy, would have to admit that on balance college graduates are more likely to posses a greater familiarity and confidence with formal language ... why? ... because languages are developed through practice ... that includes our native language ...
Who do you think governments around the world are going to be happier granting their work permits to ... or do you think the poeple at government offices are really going to be bothered to assess each applicant on his/her own merits ..
Some governments may even believe, rightly or wrongly, that the effect of academic discipline on the mind of a college graduate is yet another reason why they are happy to allow them into their classrooms ... |
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cangringo
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Now before you pipe in ... we know that this doesn't mean that everyone that studied for a college degree has more developed formal language skills than everyone that didn't study for one ... it's obvious ... no educated person would think otherwise ... but even you, fuzzy, would have to admit that on balance college graduates are more likely to posses a greater familiarity and confidence with formal language ... why? ... because languages are developed through practice ... that includes our native language ... |
Does that make them better teachers??
Last edited by cangringo on Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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cangringo
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: |
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honestly sheikh - you haven't given me anything new to mull over...
Last edited by cangringo on Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sheikh Inal Ovar
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 1208
Location: Melo Drama School
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Duh .. no cangringo .. it would never have occured to me that fuzzy was playing the buffoon .. after all everything he has said over the last few days, on this and other threads, has been so downright profound ...
I admit my sense of humour can't compete with the antics you've exhibited over the course of this thread ... you play the clown to perfection ... |
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cangringo
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Whoops, that's why you should never post drunk...I was so excited to be able to watch a playoff hockey game that I got a little overexuberant if you will.
Anyway the most recent argument is way off the track of what I was trying to say. I was talking about all your bar lowering and such, not what governments may or may not accept. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to get in on this terribly worn-out discussion very much, but here's something I can respond to.
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| I was talking about all your bar lowering and such, not what governments may or may not accept. |
Lowering the bar (lowering standards of teaching or teachers) and seeing what governments decide for visa applications are interrelated. What employers will accept is another related point. |
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cangringo
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 327
Location: Vancouver, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Lowering the bar (lowering standards of teaching or teachers) and seeing what governments decide for visa applications are interrelated. What employers will accept is another related point. |
And as I said earlier, perhaps the people you should be upset with for lowering the bar are the people that accept crappy jobs. I teach out of my house so how is that lowering the bar for you??
I won't bother to post anymore, this is a worn out discussion and we'll never agree so what's the point. I have other things to do like watch hockey playoffs. |
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