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[globalnomad2]

I said "not necessarily," so don't have a cow. But people seem to forget that physical safety speaks to the question of traffic deaths, not just gun violence.

Here are some statistics that are worth a look--from a hasty google search, readily available. Let's compare three desert cities: Dubai, Jeddah and Phoenix, Arizona. They are all about the same population of 1.25 to 1.4 million. (Or at least, Jeddah had 1.25 m in 1987, the year of my Jeddah source here.)

Last year Dubai had 312 traffic deaths and 13 murders = 325 homicides (vehicular or otherwise)

Jeddah had a 26.5 per 100,000 vehicular death rate in 1987. That would translate to about 330 vehicular deaths for the city in 1987. Who knows what the current rate is. One would need a little more time to search that I didn't have. Jeddah murders I believe I saw were about the same as Dubai. So 13 + 330 = 343 violent deaths for Jeddah in 1987.

Phoenix had 220 murders last year but only 14 vehicular deaths = 234 violent deaths.

Thus it is not true that these two Gulf cities are safer than American cities. The Phoenix homicide rate of 15 per 100,000/year is average for a large city in the US.

Of course, murders are horrible, worse than accidents by arrogant maniac drivers, but either type of death is the same result--death. Furthermore, the vast majority of US murders are thug-on-thug hits in bad neighborhoods at night. The horrific drivers in the Gulf do not restrict themselves to bad neighborhoods at night; they can strike at any time or place.

[TABING]

Great observation.

"Red" Adair, the famous oil well fireman who extinguished many of the fires that the Iraqis set in the first Gulf war said that driving to and from the fires in Kuwait was far more dangerous than actually extinguishing the fires.

[stoth1972]

Ok, but how many of the traffic accidents were truly vehicular homicide? No doubt innocent victims come from many traffic accidents, but there are also lots of accidents involving only the reckless driver(s).

[Stephen Jones]

The US road fatality rate is just under 15 per 100,000 (nearly three times the UK incidentally), and its homicide rate is over 5 per 100,000 giving a figure of 20 per 100,000.

The Saudi homicide rate is 0.4 per 100,000 and the Saudi Road fatality rate is 21 per 100,000 so the two figures balance out.

Either way you would be three times as safe in much of Europe.

[veiledsentiments]

My only quibble is that I would say that your Phoenix auto death rate is too low. Since I spend 4 months watching the nightly news in that area, I can tell you the number is significantly closer to 14 auto accident deaths a week than a year!! According to the stats that I found online, the auto death rate in Maricopa county has been between 450-475 a year between 2000 and 2005, and rising every year. Maricopa country includes Phoenix and its suburbs with a bit of surrounding empty desert.

The traffic in the Phoenix metropolitan area is almost as bad as spread out Dubai. There seems to be just as many drivers in huge fast vehicles being driven at speeds well in excess of the limit doing reckless lane changes. The traffic is danged dangerous in the Gulf 'and' many large metropolitan US areas.

The danger in both places is that auto accidents are random... and can happen in a split second at the extreme speeds being driven.

[adorabilly]

Just a point.

Phoenix and the surrounding suburbs are closer to 6 million people (maybe more). (I know, I grew up there, and still go back from time to time.) not 1.5 million.

Phoenix also sprawls over 100 miles in each and every direction. It is HUGE. Getting from one side of the valley of the sun to the other by freeway, if there are no traffic jams takes 2 hours.

But with that in mind, it really makes me feel safer and more wonderful.... I have better chances of getting squashed in the gulf cities in my car, than being shot, stabbed, or beaten to death... great.

[globalnomad2]

True that some vehicular deaths are only of the driver. True also that many murders are thug-on-thug in bad neighborhoods.

The 1.4 milliion population of Phoenix no doubt represents the formal city limits. There are always the city limits vs. the greater metro area...like Tokyo with 9 or 10 million within city limits and 20+ m. in the greater metro area.

The Pheonix traffic fatality figure of 14 was on the table that I found from a federal source showing the figures for a whole bunch of large cities.

[veiledsentiments]

To separate to the Phoenix city limits is meaningless when the only people who know where the edges are is the mailman. It would be like using the stats for the tiny 'city' of Muscat versus the Muscat sprawl out to the airport. The traffic dangers of Phoenix exist because of the usual metropolitan reality that people rarely work and live in the same suburb.

You need to compare sprawl to sprawl... Hard to use pure numbers of auto deaths, but better to use X per 1,000 or 10,000 of population. In that case, Dubai would be the leader in car deaths.

VS

[WD40]

Cars kill, guns kill. What kind of city would you prefer to live in - one where the high death is a matter of choice - you don't have to drive or you can see a bad driver if you are observant. Or you can live in fear from people who have intent to hurt, maim or intimidate. I have lived in the USA and hated the the gun mentality of society. Here in the UAE people don't carry guns or weapons, drugs are not everywhere, sexual assaults are limited and you can walk with your family without having to look every minute to check that you are not in some kind of danger. There are parts of the US which are safe and still free from these problems. I like the UAE because my kids don't have to learn about violence or forced to choose between having or not having a weapon in their house or car or on them.

The authorities are finally trying to educate people here about poor driving habits and it is beginning to have a positive effect. Wouldn't it be just as positive if the USA tried to eliminate guns. How many kids are killed each year from gun accidents? 5,000?.

[like2answer]

Everything kills. You're killing me right now.

Here are three web sites on DEATH- sorry, only USA. I guess people in other countries don't die.

http://www.anesi.com/accdeath.htm (Don't fall down!)

http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/healthcare/2002-05-22-insurance-deaths.htm (at least if you work here, you get health insurance)

[adorabilly]

why does an anti gun rant have to try to take over this thread?

Some great statistics.
The country with the highest fire arms ownership per capita - switzerland.
Yet I never hear of school rampages in switzerland. How about canada? They have a per capitia gun ownership higher than the US... how many school rampages have you heard of? OR general firearms deaths?
Japan has some of the toughest gun laws, but the mayor of nagasaki was just gunned down.

# of children killed every 13 minutes in US by guns. 1.
But when you look at that study, they define anyone under 21 as a child. There is a big difference between some gang banging punk who is 19, and a 8 year old. When you examine the statistics drop dramatically (less than 1/10th) when you examine individuals under the age of 12 (which is where I define a child)
States with the lowest violent crime also have the easiest to find concealed weapons laws.
IN states with harsh gun laws (New York, and Washington DC) you have the highest gun death rates.
In Florida, when they enacted concealed carry firearms laws, attacks vs tourists went up 300% because the thugs knew people getting off the airplanes and renting cars couldn't have guns.
There have been 2 school shootings that have been stopped before they could get REALLLLLLY bad because individuals ran to their cars parked outside of schools and retrieved their personal guns and stopped the shooters. In places do we really need to think of columbine or VT?

People die. That is part of life. Your chances of being killed by a gun in teh US are miniscule. IN fact you have better odds of dying in your car less than a mile from home. Or of being in a plane crash.

As for the statement about avoiding bad drivers... it isn't the ones you see you should worry about.

Do we need to continue?

[omanized]

Some good color on the gun laws and stats but why not mention how easy it was / is for those shooters to obtain their guns in the first place? The VT guy just went out and got a couple of deadly weapons as easily as renting a video.

And the same guys who ran to their cars to defend their campus, who's to say that 6 months down the road they won't flip their lid at a reckless driver who cuts them off and pull out that same weapon in a fit of rage?

I think it's a pretty weak justification - let's just harken back to some frontier justice, six-shooter packing hombres roaming the streets....man, is that how you want to live ?

[007]

American gun culture ............!!!!!!!!!
Who is he??

[adorabilly]

omanized.

The VT shooter got his gun legally. (he slipped through the cracks, with mental problems he should have been flagged, but Virginia has very lenient laws.) The columbine shooters broke at least 23 different laws (including fire arm possession, and murder). Criminals by definition don't follow the laws. But where did these rampages happen? IN GUN FREE ZONES.

Yes in places where guns are illegal. So the only person who had a gun was the shooter. Hmmm... makes you think. Why don't these folks go nuts and start shooting in a police department... OH, becaues the police have guns, and know how to use them. And in New York, and Washington DC, where you have the tightest gun laws in the country, you have some of the most shootings. why? because law abiding citizens can't carry guns because they don't want to break the law. But criminals (again) by defintion break the law.

The problem is not the guns, it is the mentality of American youth, and American Culture.

Now in places like switzerland, Israel, and canada gun ownership is higher per capita than in the US and you dont' hear of them doing mass shootings. (not israeli vs israeli. won't get into the palestinian mess). Why? Because those people have been taught to respect life, and to respect the power of a gun. Those people have been taught right vs wrong, and know there are punishments for behavior.

In places like Japan, china, and I think the ME, most people have also been taught to respect the power fo the weapons, and to limit the access to the weapons.

I think it is too easy to point to the guns, and say that is the problem in the US. The problem is a generation of young people who have been raised with NO consequences for their behavior, without being taught right from wrong, and who have no idea of such a thing as punishment.

before I get off of my soap box, just remember in Austrailia where gun crimes have gone up 350% after all firearms were banned. Florida where there is a rampant attacks on people driving rental cars from airports (because they can't have guns). And remember that 19 very determined individuals with box cutters killed 3000. YOu dont' need a gun to kill. Just determination, and a willingness to do anything.

Now I am getting off my soap box on this issue.

[007]