Job Discussion Forums

isukifabs · Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 3

Hi, I used to teach in Shanghai and sometimes I'd wake up and think to myself "Man, I should have gone to Japan or Korea." Well now I'm back in the states and bored out of my mind so I want to get back in the game and I'm eyeing Japan. I've been reading on this forum for the last 10 months or so and I know how you all love it when someone says "I want to teach in Japan. Can anyone give me advice?" So I'm going to try a different approach. Below is a list of all the good things I can think of about China accompanied by the bad things. I'm asking you to compare these aspects of life/work in China with what you feel about Japan. Here goes:

The good about China:
1) It's cheap...travel, food , everyday needs, custom suits, foot massages, gym memberships, etc

2) It's easy to make foreign friends

3) Never asked to work on the weekends

4) The nightlife is awesome�no shut down times, the music is mostly good, cheap drinks, no dress codes, no cutting you off after you�ve drank too much, no open container laws, etc

5) The subways are efficient and cheap. The taxis are insanely cheap�it can be like having your own chauffer.

6) The apartments for teachers can be large�like a 2-3 bedroom to yourself with at least 1 balcony

7) At night I never felt like I was in a bad part of town, always felt safe

8) There�s a lot of intramural activities for foreigners like soccer, flag football, dodge ball, ultimate Frisbee, etc

9) 3-4 weeks of vacation per year

The bad about China:
1) The way people act in public (snot rockets, spitting, chain smoking, pushing, cutting in line, public urination/ defecation etc.)

2) The people in charge (the bosses) are less than reputable�they�ll conveniently �forget� to pay your transportation allowance, they don�t help you in any way with school related problems, they don�t let you choose where you want to live, if you have a problem they blame it on someone else, they fail to tell you about rules, customs, etc. They tell you whatever you want to hear to come over to China and then when you get there�everything changes.

3) In the schools the kids don�t care about English�they either don�t talk or talk too much in Chinese. Try telling the Chinese teachers about problem students and they won�t care.

4) When you get there, you just get thrown into the mix and no one helps you adjust by showing you where anything is, giving you a lesson plan, etc

5) Too much pollution. No or limited outdoor activities. Pretty much limited to hiking. No skiing/ snowboarding (except on artificial snow). No swimming in lakes/ rivers.

6) A lot of the foreigners are�how do I put this�not cool. It�s like they were dorks in their own country and they escaped to China where they hoped no one would know any better. I know everyone is different but some of these people were textbook d. bags.

7) Everything is as difficult as possible from mailing a package to buying clothes to trying to buy Heinekin from the waitress wearing a Carlsberg shirt to ordering a big mac with no cheese

8) It�s crowded everywhere and everyone gets the same vacation days per year and 1.3 billion people are on the move at the same time

9) The state run TV stations and newspapers gets old�too much propaganda. Only pro-china news and anti Taiwan and Japan news.

10) If you have over a size 10US/36UK foot�you�d better bring an extra pair of shoes because it�s difficult finding large shoes.

11) Really the only livable cities are the big ones as the uneven distribution of wealth doesn�t trickle down to the smaller cities. So unless you like making 400USD/ month while essentially camping�you�d better live in a metropolis.

12) The girls don�t shave their armpits or go to the dentist/ othodontist�well to be fair, some do.

So there you have it. Please let me know if any of these things ring a bell of if they are virtually unheard of in Japan. For the record, I was hired from overseas and I taught in the Shanghai public school system. Obviously, opinions will vary but this was my experience. Thanks for looking.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

isukifabs · Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 3

Thanks for the reply Glenski. Nobody else can comment on this? Maybe I made it too long and the readers lost interest. Has anyone taught in both China and Japan that can add some insight? To answer Glenski's last questions to me: "So, are you planning to get hired from abroad again, or will you come here to job hunt?" I don't know yet...it sounds like to get hired from abroad you have to get stuck working for a language center that tells you where to live, how may hours to work, where to work, and they pay you a minimal salary. I've read several negative things about these places. But it would be nice to arrive in Japan with everything set up for you. Going there and looking for a job sounds too risky and I probably won't have the recommended $4000-$6000USD laying around to bring to support myself. What would you all rather do? Maybe I'll put that question in another thread. Thanks.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

Isukifabs - I worked in Japan and Korea, and am familiar with China as my husband is Chinese and I have lived in the People's Republic (as well as Hong Kong and other countries in Asia).

There is the distinct possibility you might regret going to Japan because of the lack of genuinely decent paying jobs there - a situation that's getting worse because the trend even when I left a few years back was towards part time work and well away from reasonable starting jobs with reasonable pay.

The market from what I hear is oversupplied with English teachers. Salaries have been stagnant now for about 20 years except for those with the jobs that pay well such as university jobs. However, those opportunities have diminished steadily over the past decade and many Japanese universities have entrenched discriminatory practices against foreigners with little job security as the main feature of the work.

Housing - pretty piss poor overall. Married people with Japanese spouses will do better and live in 'mansions' which are really apartments by western countries' standards (I used to laugh hearing the Japanese talk about their 'condominium' because they really don't know what that type of housing is) but your average Japanese housing is bad. Small places for big prices although that can change if you don't live in Tokyo or Osaka.

A common building material in Japan is plasterboard. Fantastic if you love being scorched in summer, dripping wet with humidity, and frozen in winter. The 'mansions' are much better and made of better materials but then again - what wouldn't be compared to the shockingly inadequate state of much Japanese housing?

In the countryside you can find houses to rent and the countryside population in much of Japan is declining and getting old. However, you can still expect in many cases to pay ridiculous upfront fees in hangover practices from the feudal past - irrespective of how many empty houses there are in the countryside. And you still have the sad plasterboard as a common building material.

As for public manners - yes China is dirty and yes Korea is too. The Japanese don't hack up in public apart from a few dirty old men, the Koreans resemble the Chinese with their dirtiness although generally Korea looks clean compared to China.

Despite the wonderful East Asian custom that the Japanese and Koreans share of usually not acknowledging others unless you've been introduced which means you can be an absolute pig to somebody and drive at them when they're legitimately using a pedestrian crossing, queue jump, and talk down or behave like an ignoramus to people in 'lower' positions, generally the Japanese have better public manners than the Chinese and the Koreans.

Many Japanese will hold a door open for you if you're coming out of a shop with your hands full - something that seems too hard for the Koreans to grasp. Carrying heavy things in Japan will mean normal people will move out of your way - in Korea, the older people in particular, will walk at you in a stunning display of lack of human decency.

The in your face aggressiveness of China and Korea is largely absent in Japan. The Japanese regard public displays of anger as unnecessary and will usually walk away from situations where others will try to clash with them in public. It's one of the best features of Japan and it makes life there much easier.

The screaming and yelling and constant need to behave like idiots in public that I encountered every day in Korea are absent in Japan. In China there was a lot more noise than in Japan but Korea wins hands down for a cultural acceptance of immature and extremely selfish behaviour that has to be seen to be believed.

I have never been able to work out why such public self-embarrassment and rudeness to others is so acceptable in Korea, a country that is so nationalistic and intent of proclaimings its virtues at the top of its lungs. The Koreans are very resentful of why foreigners are fascinated with Japan but they lack the classiness of the Japanese and the Japanese emphasis on outward modesty that still informs much of Japanese society even now.

The big problem of living in Japan is the expense, the lack of value for money, the blandness of the food, the lack of variety of goods to buy except in Tokyo. I found I could buy more in Korea - from stuff like hair removal cream, to decent sized goods with a lot more value for money in supermarkets. Japan lacks so much regarding consumer choice.

However, if it's a lifestyle that is calmer and cleaner that you're after, go for it.

anne_o · Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 172 Location: Tokyo

Hi......you're posting made me laugh....just what I needed right now!
Before teaching here in Tokyo I was working in Bangkok Thailand, I've been here for 7 months and I'll just share some observations/opinions with you from what I've experiencied.
I'm having a really difficult time adjusting to life here and I think experiencing cultue shock for the first time.......this place is really different from what I'm used to and it takes awhile to realize what it is that's so different. When you arrive everything goes fast, everything is new....and then after a few months you realize you're actually a living and breathing human being and you've forgotten that just like all of the suits on the train.

The living situation is at the top of my list of gripes......I'm used to living alone and have been living in a guest house for the entire duration of my stay. It's expensive and can take some time to set up your own place. But it can be done and there are agencies that rent to foreigners specifically.

Next, I guess has to be the expense of travelling. It's expensive, so are "cheap" hotels. It's hard to hop on a bus or train and just take off to the countryside and explore....at least it seems harder to me. Everything has to be pre-arranged.....I hate that!

It's hard to make foreign freinds in Tokyo. It's just different here......and the trains stop running at midnight. I used to live in l.a. and have a lot of friends who are artists, dj's, etc......in l.a. you really had to dig for the good peeps....here even more so.....especially if you're teaching.
It seems there are two types of foreigners here....ones that have lived here for a long time and have become as rigid and boring as the general population, or those who just want to party.....oh, and the ones with money!
I've been looking for some intelligent, fun, interesting, and generally open minded and well travelled foreigners, but my Japanese boyfriend is the only person I've met.
It's like all of these people who came here and love the place so much have never lived in a big city before and they're just living their big city dream....writing to the folks back home about how living in Tokyo is so great.

There are clubs here, but I'm not the club type.....I mean hiking clubs, etc.......club clubs are expensive, but there are some really cool smaller places for music that are more chill and attract a more creative crowd.

The people are polite, the service good.....but it's almost too much for my tastes. Everthing is too organized and people cannot think outside of the box. The latter true of most people in this world, the former really annoying.

The money is not bad here.....not great either, compared to living expenses, but are you teaching for the money?

People say the food is bland......I think it's my favorite in the world. There is actually a lot of variety, it's fresh and healthy.

The train system is amazing!!!!

When I arrived here form Bangkok I felt I had been away from civilisation......there's great, art, music, and architecture.....and fashion!

I guess it really depends on where you live here and what you want out of life. I'll never regret my decision, but I have to decide whether or not to resign my contract in March and hop across the waters to Korea. My life here is lacking the excitement and chaos I enjoy.

I'm so glad I read this post........I don't come here too often, but I'm exploring job options at the moment. My Mom thinks I should come home to figure out my next step, but I know that if I did I would be bored out of my mind like you said! You might also be a bit bored in Japan.
From my experience, the teaching here is so boring, you have to have other interests to keep you going.

Good luck and please pm me if you have any questions about Tokyo!

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

Anne O - hope I didn't put you off Korea as you mentioned you might be interested in hopping over there one day!

I didn't add (because I knew I had already changed the topic by inserting Korea in with China and Japan) that there are some fantastic aspects of Korea which make living and working superior in some ways to living and working in Japan.

Bad manners, oblivion to others' feelings unless you know them personally and immature behaviour aside, life in Korea can be awesome in terms of the food - street food, restaurant food, food available in shops - and in the ability to save money because of far more generous employment practices. Having your apartment rent free (although this can be taxed from your income) and in some cases utilities free, really makes life so much easier.

The cheapness of Korea in comparison to Japan also eases the stress. English teachers usually don't earn as much as their Korean co-workers but they still get paid handsomely in terms of the cost of living in Korea. Taking off to other cities by train is one of the most enjoyable aspects of life in Korea - it was extremely disappointing to be forking out huge amounts of money for even short journeys within Japan.

I still maintain Japanese food is bland - especially compared to Korea's. Go to Korea and eat fantastic, cheap street food that is also healthy. Find fruit vendors on every block in most places. In many cities in Japan the availability of fruit and other groceries/goods is pathetic. Tokyo is a city apart - the rest of Japan lacks consumer choice and is the most over-rated country in the world for shopping. In Korea I could go and find household goods at around 8.30pm at night - and cheaply.

Maybe Korea is the way for you to go!

tclowers · Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 22 Location: Fukuoka, Japan

Glenski wrote:

jonathanj · Joined: 09 Mar 2005 Posts: 93

kingmalka · Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject:

Excellent thread.

jjprine · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:53 am Post subject:

Excellent thread indeed. I'm currently teaching in China and can also attest to things being as difficult as possible.

I, too, am considering trying to teach in Japan next, though I'll be in China until July. I've been reading a lot of the threads here, and there seems to be a really negative vibe about being a new teacher in Japan. I really want to travel to a different country, but my experience here has been great, and I'm (strangely) starting to wonder if Japan could be as good/better, something I previously thought was surefire.

It looks like my qualifications (Native speaker, B.A. in English, 1 yr exp., univ. TESOL cert) will still only get me into an eikaiwa. Is that really so bad? Glenski seems to be an expert on the topic, so I'm hoping he or some others with experience could provide some perspective compared to the seemingly negative sentiments I keep finding. China is no paradise, but after getting settled, it's life.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Is eikaiwa really so bad?

The simple answer is... it depends.

You could teach adults or kids. Adults have had 6 or more years of English instruction in JHS and SHS, but little chance to speak. Kids require lots of energy. Japanese people are shy, so they are often hard to get answers or volunteers from the crowd.

Eikaiwa adults are usually housewives or retirees or businesspeople. Some are deluded into thinking an hour a week will improve their English ability, IMO. Some come only to socialize, not learn/improve English. Many come to gawk at the foreign teacher. Just remember one thing...it's a business.

You might have a format thrust down your throat, and if you vary one millimeter, you will be penalized or scolded. Students will report you. Other eikaiwas allow moderate to total freedom. Some places have notorious managers, while other branches within the same company could have sweethearts for bosses. It's a lot of luck.

Read this for perspectives from the manager's and serious foreign teacher's sides. http://www.eltnews.com/features/special/015a.shtml

jjprine · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:54 am Post subject:

Haha. Ok, so it's exactly like every aspect of TEFL, it all depends. Fair enough. Thanks for that link; I'll definitely read it and probably (hopefully) end up reporting back with better questions.

NorthofAmerica · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 187 Location: Recovering Expat

Wow, great thread and great timing...

It was a lot to read through just now so I hope what I write is still relevant here. I, for one, am really interested in hearing about China.

I am in the opposite boat. I am looking at moving to China from Japan, specifically Shanghai though recently I've started looking at Shenzhen...
I live in the "inaka" or countryside here (100,000+ and less than an hour to Kyoto, but by Japanese standards countryside)

I have lived in the countryside and often thought about whether I am "missing out" by not moving to a big booming city. Unfortunately I feel like Japan is ultimately in decline, at least it seems that way to me. It's sad because I have loved my time here. Perhaps too many people's visions of Japan are still influenced by the 80s and the bubble period (myself included). Part of me still really wants to be somewhere that is booming so I feel like I could hit 2 birds with one stone by moving to a big city in China.

I am really torn about leaving here. I came to Japan about a year and half ago and while open to staying longer didn't think I would be so sick to my stomach at the prospect of leaving.

Glenski's reply hits most of your questions right on so I will try not to repeat him. I do have weekends off and work at an eikaiwa though:)

Cost of living vs. income. I know we make more here in real terms than in China and with a little side work and decent budgeting you can easily live comfortably while saving money. Was that the case in a big city in China? Smaller cities are seemingly much more affordable here and the pay is the same or similar.

Apartments here are cramped but really my biggest complaint is the crap build quality. They seriously don't know what insulation or double paned windows are. I use freakin' kerosene heaters to heat my apartment and even then it is often freezing and/or drafty. I like the style of the homes though for some odd reason. Just aesthetics I guess.

The shopping selection for just about everything is pretty crap in my opinion but I don't really shop at all so I hardly notice. I haven't bought shoes in 2 years though Sad

Japanese people are really friendly in the Kansai area I find (though Kyoto is full of snobs both foreign and Japanese IMO) and I have made lots of good friends here. It helps if you are interested in Japan and Japanese more than if you can actually speak it and loads of people speak English.

Some bad things...

I think Japanese schooling, and socialization in some ways, is utterly terrible. It's emphasis is on rote memorization and submissiveness and it churns out passive automatons with no capability of problem solving or critical thinking. That's obviously a generalization but my students and the people around me in general have been astoundingly dense and dull. Again, a generalization but something I've been taken aback by. I hope China is different, oh god do I hope so.

Concrete everything. Even in the countryside the Japanese just love grey concrete waaaay too much. That said, some cool urban architecture pops up here and there sometimes... but not enough.

Old people and no babies. Everyday is like a zombie movie here. Wherever I go I see absurdly old looking people doing everything from serving me to farming to biking. And I see few kids and like no families with more than 2. Imagine drug stores in place of bars, slow cars clogging the roads in the middle of weekdays, and everything else associated with old people amped up. Youth culture can be pretty sparse. Again, I hope China is much better for this.

All in all I have had an amazing time here and without any reference other than a few trips abroad I would definitely say it's worth taking a look here.

jjprine · Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject:

A note on Glenski's article: Thanks for the article, it was a good quick read. It seemed to me, however, that the managers were trying to get the teachers to address the affective filters of the students but didn't know how to communicate it. Forgive my ignorance, but the issues discussed don't seem like very big disparities that would be difficult to overcome. I don't mean to sound condescending, but if a teacher cannot handle such seemingly small differences with management, how is said teacher able to understand and communicate quality lessons to the students? Or am I underestimating how difficult it can be to deal with management?

NofA:

I just got back from Shanghai, and I was thoroughly awed. I haven't taught there, but being there for a week I know a tad about it. The subway system is great. No subway in my city, just taxis and buses, so I enjoyed being able to use a subway. For me, it was like going back to America: lots of people spoke English, Starbucks and American food places everywhere, totally modern. I could go on forever.

I can't tell you about Shanghai, but I am in China, so I'll try and make it relevant. I make 4,000RMB (~$500) per month, with housing, electricity, gas, and internet paid for. I pay for my food and water, which is incredibly cheap. (I try to live cheap; I eat at local restaurants for 7RMB instead of some of the "higher quality" ones, but my food is good anyway. I can't tell you how much I pay for water, because it's that cheap -- I don't know or notice.) Very good chance to save the money that you get.

I would expect a Shanghai salary to be much more than mine, considering the higher cost of living, but as far as money spent compared to money earned, I think you could still save if that was your goal. Keep in mind Shanghai has every store you would want to shop at and lots of nightclubs, if that's your fancy.

Apartments - I scored a 3 bedroom apartment with a kitchen & dining room all to myself. There are teachers at another school who also have the same, but I don't know of any single teachers at that school having a 3 bed. Their pay is the same, though I don't know about their utilities. On the other hand, there is yet another school that provides very small housing, yet same pay. When I say small, I mean their living room is the size of my dining room, 1 bedroom, a kitchen about 16 in x 4ft, and a bathroom that feels like a water-heater closet. Same pay, same qualifications. (Actually less qualifications than myself, but that isn't what made the difference. Bad luck is what made the difference.) So, it just depends. Also, I have an air conditioner. I'd just recommend talking to previous teachers at the schools you get job offers, because from my experience here in Ningxia, there can be big differences.

Concerning heating/AC: Considering that China is having the worst winter in 50 years, I'm freezing. I don't go outside 'cause I hate that kind of cold (-15F). In my house I use place heaters, and they generally do the job. Not having to pay for my electricity really comes in handy in that situation. Oh, and my walls are made of cement, so I don't have many problems RE: thin walls.

Like I said, you'll have no problem shopping in Shanghai. Economic capital.

I've found most people are friendly and helpful, but I'm a positive guy and generally have a smile when I approach a stranger. If I were to move to Shanghai, I wouldn't worry about the friendliness of the people.

The "bads"

Chinese schooling is pretty much the same. Rote memorization is key here. Same problem, the students don't have any problem solving skills, deductive reasoning, or what Westerners call logic and common sense. They don't question, they just do. In Shanghai, however, I think you might be blessed with more Western thinking just because it's so modern. Not everyone, but more than anywhere else.

(By this time, I feel like inserting that talking about Shanghai and China feel completely different. I'm from CA, USA, and would never talk about SF or LA the same way as "America," so realize that.)

In general, the architecture isn't anything you'd ogle at, but in Shanghai you'll want to live on the 25th floor a mile outside of town so that you can take it all in.

In Shanghai there is a lot of youth, and a lot of traffic. It's a big city, and I compare it to New York with a clean conscience. The ONLY reason I don't want to live there is because I wouldn't want to become jaded to everything else, like after living in L.A. or N.Y. in America. I love it there, and I'd love to visit it as often as possible, I just wouldn't want to live there, and that's merely a personal thing, not a Shanghai thing. Good luck getting a job there!