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Phil_b
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 239
Location: Back in London
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 Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: yes perhaps the CELTA training is not a scam |
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| coledavis wrote: |
| Phil_b wrote: |
I cannot speak about the university sector - but it is unlikely that someone without a CELTA or equivalent would get any teaching hours at an FE College. The majority of teachers in the sector have a PGCE/Cert Ed or DTTLLS qualification, which are all far more in-depth qualifications than a CELTA... Staff at Colleges are subject to the institutions quality assurance procedures and inspection by OFSTED - How does this compare with the language schools sector?
It looks like this is down to the market. Many language schools pay so little, that someone who is interested in being a professional is unlikely to go near them.... Presumably, this isn't causing huge problems with students as then they'd stop paying and the whole model would collapse. The question to ask is whether there would be a market for better teaching? I would love to see language schools putting their staff through the DELTA as a matter of course... is that realistic? Does it happen already?
I'd be interested to hear about good practice and good examples in EFL schools in the UK, because all I've heard is bad, and from what I've heard, I wouldn't want to work in one - but maybe I'm mistaken...? |
Sorry, but I don't think that this is terribly informed. Many FE lecturers come in from the professions and trades and - as I said in my last message - are taught on the job. The better schools, and only they are allowed to advertise this, receive British Council inspections; not the same as Ofsted, granted, but again a minimum standard is available there (and yes, the lesser quality schools don't have this, so agreed that this is weaker overall than the mainstream sector). People are not professionals in TEFL in your opinion and yet you also say that students aren't walking away. Remember these are paying students, who are usually more discriminating than many people on ESOL courses who have to attend classes. As for DELTA, I would hate to see this. It is a bureaucratic course and I don't think it really develops the teacher.
With regards to your final comments, these really say something. All you've heard about the EFL sector is bad and, you implicitly say that you haven't been near a language school. Well, then you should go and look at some of the better ones, maybe condescend to visit, before generalising and making recommendations based on hearsay. |
I'm sorry if I came across as condescending, that wasn't my intention. I'm sure there are some good language schools around, and I would like to hear about them... In saying that I've only heard bad things, that's just my experience, based on hearsay (take a look at the postings on this forum, not a scientific study by any means, but there's not much that is positive here), please give some examples of where things are going well, I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd be interested.
Your statement about FE lecturers, in terms of ESOL, is misinformed. The latest figures I've seen from LLUK (published last year) showed that only 5% of staff teaching ESOL had no qualifications (in 2005/6) - the vast majority had done pre-service training. Without at least a CELTA, or serious overseas qualifications, someone is unlikely to get any work at a college. There is also a clear recognition that CELTA is not sufficient - hence the requirement to do further general and subject-specific teaching qualifications.
I'd be interested to see how language schools manage professional development? Maybe the DELTA isn't the right option... do schools support people through masters degrees or other qualifications? Do they insist on some kind of meaningful professional development? I am asking, I am interested....
I think that pay and professionalism are linked - I'm not querying the successfulness of the sector as a business - there are plenty of students, but I can't quite see how the sector can maintain quality while frequently paying between a third and half of what an FE College would.
The bottom line for me is that if I had to advise someone who wanted to make a career out of teaching English in London (this is where I know about - I'm sure the South Coast might be very different), then I can't really see any reasons to recommend the private sector, maybe I'm misinformed?? |
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coledavis
Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:05 am Post subject: Re: yes perhaps the CELTA training is not a scam |
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| Phil_b wrote: |
I'm sorry if I came across as condescending, that wasn't my intention. I'm sure there are some good language schools around, and I would like to hear about them... In saying that I've only heard bad things, that's just my experience, based on hearsay (take a look at the postings on this forum, not a scientific study by any means, but there's not much that is positive here), please give some examples of where things are going well, I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd be interested.
Your statement about FE lecturers, in terms of ESOL, is misinformed. The latest figures I've seen from LLUK (published last year) showed that only 5% of staff teaching ESOL had no qualifications (in 2005/6) - the vast majority had done pre-service training. Without at least a CELTA, or serious overseas qualifications, someone is unlikely to get any work at a college. There is also a clear recognition that CELTA is not sufficient - hence the requirement to do further general and subject-specific teaching qualifications.
I'd be interested to see how language schools manage professional development? Maybe the DELTA isn't the right option... do schools support people through masters degrees or other qualifications? Do they insist on some kind of meaningful professional development? I am asking, I am interested....
I think that pay and professionalism are linked - I'm not querying the successfulness of the sector as a business - there are plenty of students, but I can't quite see how the sector can maintain quality while frequently paying between a third and half of what an FE College would.
The bottom line for me is that if I had to advise someone who wanted to make a career out of teaching English in London (this is where I know about - I'm sure the South Coast might be very different), then I can't really see any reasons to recommend the private sector, maybe I'm misinformed?? |
Re. bad repute: as with the mainstream media, most of what you'll hear is negative. Generally speaking, teachers who have had a bad experience will report it; people aren't usually going to get online and write "I had an ok experience here" unless information about the particular school is elicited. Visits to British Council regulated schools may be the answer if you want to experience the higher end. Whatever, making damning generalisations when you know perfectly well that they are based on hearsay is just plain unfair.
Re: FE qualifications: my reference was to FE teaching as a whole, taking in lecturers who came in from the professions (I was one such). I agree that ESOL entrants are much more likely to be qualified, but then they are usually armed with CELTA and maybe DELTA, both of which they achieved in the TEFL sector, yes, from those wicked old language schools.
Re. pay and professionalism relationship: I don't think so. Maybe you're thinking of medicine and the law (I'm doubtful about the latter), but what about the financial sector (as a topical subject), estate agents and property development? The linkage becomes a bit tenuous I think. I rather think that the norms in any particular profession are more important, although I would agree with you to the extent that an element of financial comfort makes it easier to put good practice first.
Re. development within language schools: this is generally DELTA, which is appropriate for small to medium size enterprises. The study is part-time and relates in part to management of said enterprises. (Which doesn't mean that I would want to do DELTA personally). MA courses are not generally funded by TEFL institutions as far as I am aware.
Re. teaching in London: I have also been in this. In financial terms, I personally agree with you, although I do know professional (and I mean this in more than one sense) teachers who do TEFL in London. They work at the better private language schools, although their pay is not brilliant. If you want to recommend in financial terms, then I agree, TEFL is not to be recommended, although as you suggest, FE colleges offer more.
Incidentally, you refer to 'private' institutions as if this differentiates language schools from FE. In general, most FE colleges incorporated well over a decade ago, i.e. they are also businesses. |
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Englishish
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:17 am Post subject: |
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Teaching ESOL at the Further Education level in the UK is pretty confusing! I keep checking every year or so and it always seems there's something just around the corner that they're planning to change. I taught ESOL in a college in 2004 with just a CELTA though my contract stated that I would have to get a further qualification within 2 years of being there (which I didn't do because it was the wrong time of year and I didn't stay 2 years - sorry, I can't remember the name of the qualification.)
In 2004 they were talking about making the DELTA compatible with the other qualification by adding on some extention module(s) to the DELTA which judging from the remarks here, they haven't done yet. On the other hand, I'm sure I heard/read someone say that they had done this qualification but then found it difficult to get jobs abroad because they didn't have a CELTA certificate - even though the other qualification is at a higher level! Employers abroad were not impressed with this unknown qualification - even though it was required to teach ESOL in colleges in the UK!
Having taught in the UK and abroad I can understand the differences between them. (For example, there are often huge literacy issues when teaching in the UK - some ESOL students aren't literate in their own language and these are in the same class as people who are doctors in their own country.) However, I think they are similar enough to have a more integrated system for teaching qualifications.
I'm still no closer to understanding what is required and if I get a DELTA (which as someone correctly pointed out, is NOT a required qualification to teach in colleges) or an MA, if there would be further qualifications I'd have to do. I've sent a couple of emails to education websites so I'll have to wait and see if I get a response (but I've tried and failed in the past!) I even asked the DOS of a summer school in the UK this year and they said they had no idea about it! (Though admittedly, a summer school and a college isn't exactly the same thing!) |
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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Englishish, your experience chimes with mine. I taught in 2003/4? with a CELTA and some summer school experience (including in an FE college), and then did part one of City&Guilds 4707 (I think) whilst there, but was unable to do part 2 due to the usual change from year to year in FE college organisation/contracts/policies/courses/staffing/you name it.
Currently I'm abroad but will probably return at some stage and will need to earn at least a little bit to supplement other income. Currently shelf-stacking at Tesco seems a more viable option. |
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Englishish
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:38 am Post subject: |
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That's the one! The City and Guilds 4707 (which was a level 4 qualification). That was pretty new in 2003/4. Now that's been replaced with the diploma DTE(E)LLS which is level 5 and is part time over 2 years!
It looks like the add on for DELTA qualified people has been put in place so you don't need to repeat what you've already done but there's no indication how much work/time is required to do that. (I wonder if the people who qualified for the 4707 will have to do an add-on also?)
And you STILL don't have QTS after doing that!
Mind you, it will probably all change again in the future! I wish they'd stop moving the goal posts! As it stands at the moment, I'm not even sure if it it a good thing that I didn't get the 4707 out of the way when I first started teaching or whether it's better that I waited! |
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Englishish
Joined: 01 Oct 2009
Posts: 78
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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure of the latest situation, but FE teachers last I heard were a bit miffed that they were trying to introduce teaching to under 16s in FE colleges: ie: not students attending purely voluntarily, but the salaries weren't going to increase. If people wanted to teach under 16s they'd teach in schools and get the appropriate pay.
Given that you can get QTS via the graduate teaching scheme (I think it's called) how does that tie in with the amount of training on the DTEetc scheme?
As you say it's confusing and I'm glad I don't really have to confront the issue | | |
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