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CELTA/TESOL certificate vs. state side license for TW PS?
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Which of the two degree/certificate holders with experience qualify to teach in Taiwan public schools?

1. A CELTA/TESOL certificate/diploma holder with 6 + years experience teaching L2 learners over overseas.

14%

[ 1 ]

2. A state side certified teacher with 6+ years experience teaching L1 learners state side or in the country that certified them.

57%

[ 4 ]

3. Both CELTA/TESOL certificate/diploma and state certified holders.

28%

[ 2 ]

4. Neither

[ 0 ]

Total Votes : 7

Author

Message

zipper

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:48 am Post subject:

JZer wrote:

You are making a big assumption.

No, because people do think and have assumptions about it. That's very clear from policies they adopt.

Quote:

They probably don't have any opinion on it.

And they probably do. You are making an assumption here, and an uneducated one at that.

Quote:

They just think that teachers need to be certified to teach in public schools.

Well, maybe they do, and may they don't. But people have voted above for a reason, right? They must have assumptions and opinions, right? Isn't that the reason they voted? How about you? Did you vote for number 2? Why and why not?

Quote:

I might ask the question why do governments in western countries think that teachers need to be certified to teach in public schools?

This is not relevant to the topic of the thread.

But I will mention that I agree that �Both� are qualified to work in public schools according to the criteria I mentioned above.

All government education ministries and departments have their own standards and tests to evaluate teachers� preparedness and with issuing them licenses. Are teacher licenses from different countries comparable? Perhaps and perhaps not. One country espouses Western liberal cultural values into its education system, and the other espouses far Eastern and Confucius values into its system? Are these paradigms comparable? I don�t know. You tell me. Does cross cultural, social and cultural linguistical experience of teachers and students count for anything? Do both countries address these issues in their teacher colleges? Do all the countries use the IPA charts?

Quote:

Why not hire people who get the best results and stop worrying about requiring people to job through hoops that may or may not make them a better teacher?

How do you hire �people who get the best results� without first evaluating their performance? You know as well as I do that anybody could write down what they want on a resume, and as far as credentials and certificates go there are some teachers here that have just passed the grades and others that have excelled, but overtime without continuing professional development their performance may deteriorate.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:12 am Post subject:

Quote:

JZer wrote:
You are making a big assumption.

No, because people do think and have assumptions about it. That's very clear from policies they adopt.

There is no way of telling from the current policy that people really thought this through. I agree that people have assumptions. For that matter everyone has assumptions. Making a decision based on an assumption is not thinking it through. That is just basing a decision on your personal beliefs and not any facts.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:19 am Post subject:

Zipper wrote:

Quote:

Having a reason for doing something and having actually though something through are two completely different things. Furthermore I doubt that the person who voted for the measure has probably ever taught English.

I would love to get those people in the room and have them explain why one needs a teacher's certification to teach TEFL in a public school in Taiwan. Actually the fact that an Art teacher or PE teacher could theoretically teach English in a Taiwanese public school and someone who has studied languages but does not have a teacher's license clearly demonstrates that they have not really thought through the process.

I could understand it if they required a teacher's license is a related field such as ESL, German, Chinese, or other modern languages. At least those people would have a clue about teaching and learning a second language.

Last edited by JZer on Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:23 am Post subject:

Quote:

Does cross cultural, social and cultural linguistical experience of teachers and students count for anything?

It seems that according to the Taiwanese Ministry of Education that it does not. They would prefer someone with a Math degree or Art degree over someone who has actually taught and learned a foreign language.

zipper

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject:

JZer wrote:

People develop assumptions and opinions about particular cause/effects, practices, beliefs, laws or how something works through their personal perceptions and experiences. Opinions are thoughts usually formed through one�s experience intrinsically or extrinsically; which could depend on the level of consciousness one experiences during the time a particular phenomenon or event occurs. I think that most people are experiential, analytical and perhaps just curious about reality and how that reality affects them. Often people experience, see or hear about a situation or phenomena they don�t understand, and so they develop opinions or perhaps assumptions if they wish to retire their investigation, but a lot of people go beyond assumptions and develop opinions as to why things occur the way they do. Yet, others want to go further and explore whether or not their opinions or assumptions hold any water; and so, they develop a hypothesis and create measurements to test whether or not their hypothesis is valid; whether it is concrete or abstract. Finally after they collect the datum, they analyze the results and make a determination based on the evidence to whether or not their opinions or assumptions were true based on facts.

From what I gather from the above survey is that an experienced overseas CELTA/TESOL EFL teacher might be just as qualified as an experienced state side certified teacher whose specialty may not be ESL/EFL related to teach L2 learners EFL in a Taiwan public school. So, I devised that poll based on a very narrowly defined set of indicators hoping that people would vote and then state a reason why they voted for their choice. There�s nothing terribly scientific about it. I am interested to know why one would consider their choice, and give me a clear and rational argument that supports their reasons.

For me, I feel that an experienced overseas CELTA/TESOL EFL teacher is just as qualified as a stateside licensed teacher, because a CELTA/TESOL certified ESL/EFL teacher has been trained specifically to teach L2 learners; and I would go on to describe ESL/EFL as a specialized teaching field. Hence, my vote is for BOTH.

JZer wrote:

I would love to get those people in the room and have them explain why one needs a teacher's certification to teach TEFL in a public school in Taiwan. Actually the fact that an Art teacher or PE teacher could theoretically teach English in a Taiwanese public school and someone who has studied languages but does not have a teacher's license clearly demonstrates that they have not really thought through the process.

I could understand it if they required a teacher's license is a related field such as ESL, German, Chinese, or other modern languages. At least those people would have a clue about teaching and learning a second language.

I totally and unequivocally agree with you here. I would love to have them explain it to me, too.

JZer wrote:

Empathy and experience ought to be appreciated and it would if there were real and experienced educators at the helm, but unfortunately we are governed by political animals. Ask Bob Dylan.
Laughing

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject:

Quote:

For me, I feel that an experienced overseas CELTA/TESOL EFL teacher is just as qualified as a stateside licensed teacher, because a CELTA/TESOL certified ESL/EFL teacher has been trained specifically to teach L2 learners; and I would go on to describe ESL/EFL as a specialized teaching field. Hence, my vote is for BOTH.

Interestingly enough there were some American professors who compared a certified teacher in the same subject with someone who had a B.A. in the same subject and not a teacher's license. They gave the students a test at the beginning of the year and at the end of the school year. There was no significant difference in the improvements of students who were taught by a certified teacher and a non-certified teacher.

I acknowledge that there is research that would contradict those results but if someone looked at things objectively there is no concrete proof that going through a teacher's certification really makes one a better teacher.

Maybe teach skills cannot really be taught. The most important skills may be natural.

Last edited by JZer on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total