Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - CELTA/TESOL certificate vs. state side license for TW PS?

Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

CELTA/TESOL certificate vs. state side license for TW PS?
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Taiwan

View previous topic :: View next topic

Which of the two degree/certificate holders with experience qualify to teach in Taiwan public schools?

1. A CELTA/TESOL certificate/diploma holder with 6 + years experience teaching L2 learners over overseas.

14%

[ 1 ]

2. A state side certified teacher with 6+ years experience teaching L1 learners state side or in the country that certified them.

57%

[ 4 ]

3. Both CELTA/TESOL certificate/diploma and state certified holders.

28%

[ 2 ]

4. Neither

[ 0 ]

Total Votes : 7

Author

Message

zipper

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:48 am Post subject:

JZer wrote:

You are making a big assumption.

No, because people do think and have assumptions about it. That's very clear from policies they adopt.

Quote:

They probably don't have any opinion on it.

And they probably do. You are making an assumption here, and an uneducated one at that.

Quote:

They just think that teachers need to be certified to teach in public schools.

Well, maybe they do, and may they don't. But people have voted above for a reason, right? They must have assumptions and opinions, right? Isn't that the reason they voted? How about you? Did you vote for number 2? Why and why not?

Quote:

I might ask the question why do governments in western countries think that teachers need to be certified to teach in public schools?

This is not relevant to the topic of the thread.

But I will mention that I agree that �Both� are qualified to work in public schools according to the criteria I mentioned above.

All government education ministries and departments have their own standards and tests to evaluate teachers� preparedness and with issuing them licenses. Are teacher licenses from different countries comparable? Perhaps and perhaps not. One country espouses Western liberal cultural values into its education system, and the other espouses far Eastern and Confucius values into its system? Are these paradigms comparable? I don�t know. You tell me. Does cross cultural, social and cultural linguistical experience of teachers and students count for anything? Do both countries address these issues in their teacher colleges? Do all the countries use the IPA charts?

Quote:

Why not hire people who get the best results and stop worrying about requiring people to job through hoops that may or may not make them a better teacher?

How do you hire �people who get the best results� without first evaluating their performance? You know as well as I do that anybody could write down what they want on a resume, and as far as credentials and certificates go there are some teachers here that have just passed the grades and others that have excelled, but overtime without continuing professional development their performance may deteriorate.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:12 am Post subject:

Quote:

JZer wrote:
You are making a big assumption.

No, because people do think and have assumptions about it. That's very clear from policies they adopt.

There is no way of telling from the current policy that people really thought this through. I agree that people have assumptions. For that matter everyone has assumptions. Making a decision based on an assumption is not thinking it through. That is just basing a decision on your personal beliefs and not any facts.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:19 am Post subject:

Zipper wrote:

Quote:

Having a reason for doing something and having actually though something through are two completely different things. Furthermore I doubt that the person who voted for the measure has probably ever taught English.

I would love to get those people in the room and have them explain why one needs a teacher's certification to teach TEFL in a public school in Taiwan. Actually the fact that an Art teacher or PE teacher could theoretically teach English in a Taiwanese public school and someone who has studied languages but does not have a teacher's license clearly demonstrates that they have not really thought through the process.

I could understand it if they required a teacher's license is a related field such as ESL, German, Chinese, or other modern languages. At least those people would have a clue about teaching and learning a second language.

Last edited by JZer on Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:23 am Post subject:

Quote:

Does cross cultural, social and cultural linguistical experience of teachers and students count for anything?

It seems that according to the Taiwanese Ministry of Education that it does not. They would prefer someone with a Math degree or Art degree over someone who has actually taught and learned a foreign language.

zipper

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject:

JZer wrote:

People develop assumptions and opinions about particular cause/effects, practices, beliefs, laws or how something works through their personal perceptions and experiences. Opinions are thoughts usually formed through one�s experience intrinsically or extrinsically; which could depend on the level of consciousness one experiences during the time a particular phenomenon or event occurs. I think that most people are experiential, analytical and perhaps just curious about reality and how that reality affects them. Often people experience, see or hear about a situation or phenomena they don�t understand, and so they develop opinions or perhaps assumptions if they wish to retire their investigation, but a lot of people go beyond assumptions and develop opinions as to why things occur the way they do. Yet, others want to go further and explore whether or not their opinions or assumptions hold any water; and so, they develop a hypothesis and create measurements to test whether or not their hypothesis is valid; whether it is concrete or abstract. Finally after they collect the datum, they analyze the results and make a determination based on the evidence to whether or not their opinions or assumptions were true based on facts.

From what I gather from the above survey is that an experienced overseas CELTA/TESOL EFL teacher might be just as qualified as an experienced state side certified teacher whose specialty may not be ESL/EFL related to teach L2 learners EFL in a Taiwan public school. So, I devised that poll based on a very narrowly defined set of indicators hoping that people would vote and then state a reason why they voted for their choice. There�s nothing terribly scientific about it. I am interested to know why one would consider their choice, and give me a clear and rational argument that supports their reasons.

For me, I feel that an experienced overseas CELTA/TESOL EFL teacher is just as qualified as a stateside licensed teacher, because a CELTA/TESOL certified ESL/EFL teacher has been trained specifically to teach L2 learners; and I would go on to describe ESL/EFL as a specialized teaching field. Hence, my vote is for BOTH.

JZer wrote:

I would love to get those people in the room and have them explain why one needs a teacher's certification to teach TEFL in a public school in Taiwan. Actually the fact that an Art teacher or PE teacher could theoretically teach English in a Taiwanese public school and someone who has studied languages but does not have a teacher's license clearly demonstrates that they have not really thought through the process.

I could understand it if they required a teacher's license is a related field such as ESL, German, Chinese, or other modern languages. At least those people would have a clue about teaching and learning a second language.

I totally and unequivocally agree with you here. I would love to have them explain it to me, too.

JZer wrote:

Empathy and experience ought to be appreciated and it would if there were real and experienced educators at the helm, but unfortunately we are governed by political animals. Ask Bob Dylan.
Laughing

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:02 pm Post subject:

Quote:

For me, I feel that an experienced overseas CELTA/TESOL EFL teacher is just as qualified as a stateside licensed teacher, because a CELTA/TESOL certified ESL/EFL teacher has been trained specifically to teach L2 learners; and I would go on to describe ESL/EFL as a specialized teaching field. Hence, my vote is for BOTH.

Interestingly enough there were some American professors who compared a certified teacher in the same subject with someone who had a B.A. in the same subject and not a teacher's license. They gave the students a test at the beginning of the year and at the end of the school year. There was no significant difference in the improvements of students who were taught by a certified teacher and a non-certified teacher.

I acknowledge that there is research that would contradict those results but if someone looked at things objectively there is no concrete proof that going through a teacher's certification really makes one a better teacher.

Maybe teach skills cannot really be taught. The most important skills may be natural.

Last edited by JZer on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Empathy and experience ought to be appreciated and it would if there were real and experienced educators at the helm, but unfortunately we are governed by political animals. Ask Bob Dylan.

Not really. A lot of experienced educators and professionals seem to be political animals too and believe that having a university degree in their field is the only way one should be able to get a job in that field.

For example, I read a lot about language learning in my free time. Some people might have actually read a lot more about a subject than someone trained in the field. The education for a certified teacher may have ended with their last class as a university senior while others may continue to read up on the subject and ponder the results of their students.

Furthermore, most countries are requiring more classes to remain certified after graduation but as far as I know in the US a teacher can remain certified without actually take classes in their subject. I may be wrong on that but last time I heard my mother talking she could take a computer class or another class and remain a certified math teacher. Go figure.

Rooster_2006

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject:

This is to anyone who has used the term CELTA in regard to public schools (no matter how much I may agree with you that PS is overly arbitrary about credentials)... Let me clarify something here: CELTA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EDUCATION OF CHILDREN -- IT IS AN ADULT TEACHING CERTIFICATE. Therefore, CELTA has no more relevance to L2 children than a degree in teaching L1 learners does. I did CELTA. All our practice classes were adult classes. We used adult textbooks. There was basically nothing in our training whatsoever about kids, classroom management, developmental psychology, or anything like that. I eventually did learn many of those things, but they were either through Hess training, independent study, or experience, NOT CELTA. If you want to argue the case for MA TESOL, CELTYL (e.g. CELTA for young learners), etc. then fine. However, your argument will be very weak if you use the word "CELTA" since CELTA is an ADULT teaching certificate.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject:

Quote:

If you want to argue the case for MA TESOL, CELTYL (e.g. CELTA for young learners), etc. then fine.

I also believe that many M.A. TESOL programs are geared to teaching university level students and most research that you will read will be about teaching university students and adults.

Rooster_2006

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject:

JZer wrote:

Quote:

If you want to argue the case for MA TESOL, CELTYL (e.g. CELTA for young learners), etc. then fine.

I also believe that many M.A. TESOL programs are geared to teaching university level students and most research that you will read will be about teaching university students and adults.

True. However:
1. I'm sure that over the course of one or two years, SOMETHING has to slip out regarding teaching youngsters.
2. Every MA TESOL program is different, so in some programs, youngsters may be covered. CELTA is highly standardized and there are NO components on children.

In CELTA, there is *nothing* with regard to teaching youngsters. *Nothing.* I remember when asking about classroom management in a class for youngsters, my instructor simply said "don't even smile for the first six weeks."

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject:

Rooster_2006 wrote:

JZer wrote:

Quote:

If you want to argue the case for MA TESOL, CELTYL (e.g. CELTA for young learners), etc. then fine.

I also believe that many M.A. TESOL programs are geared to teaching university level students and most research that you will read will be about teaching university students and adults.

Yes, but I believe that in some M.A. programs there is also nothing about teaching youngsters. I took three educational classes that M.A. students in TESOL could take. I was studying German education. I don't think children were ever mentioned except for the critical language period.

Rooster_2006

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject:

JZer wrote:

Rooster_2006 wrote:

JZer wrote:

Quote:

If you want to argue the case for MA TESOL, CELTYL (e.g. CELTA for young learners), etc. then fine.

I also believe that many M.A. TESOL programs are geared to teaching university level students and most research that you will read will be about teaching university students and adults.

I see what you're saying.

Then perhaps zipper should change his wording from CELTA to CELTYL. CELTYL is most definitely applicable.

zipper

Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:49 am Post subject:

Rooster_2006 wrote:

Then perhaps zipper should change his wording from CELTA to CELTYL. CELTYL is most definitely applicable.

I have never taken CELTA, but a S.A friend of mine has, and he has basically said the same thing as you. But couldn't a CELTA certified teacher transfer and mold some of their teaching skills and methods designed for adults to young learners?

One reason why I have chosen to study a TESOL course is because it touches lightly on the subject of teaching young learners. For the most part, I have acquired my skills teaching children while teaching EFL to them. I must admit it has been a trial and error process and there's still a lot of room for self improvement. Much of the experience was through private schools, however. Moreover, I attended a lot of work shops in S. Korea while I was teaching at elementary public schools there. One really has to have a desire to learn and pursue more teaching skills and knowledge through professional development courses. The certification process never ends at the testing centers sort to speak.

If I could change the above language from CELTA to CELTYL certificate I would, but I can't edit the poll questions anymore, and you're absolutely right Rooster; nonetheless, it�s too late to change it. In fact, I am thinking about taking a CELTYL course in the near future.

Rooster_2006

Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:14 am Post subject:

zipper wrote:

Rooster_2006 wrote:

Then perhaps zipper should change his wording from CELTA to CELTYL. CELTYL is most definitely applicable.

Well, I'm thinking that a state-certified teacher would have had many courses in developmental psychology, classroom management, etc. that are still cross-culturally applicable, and a holder of a generic TEFL certificate would have lacked these.

HOWEVER, I still agree with you about the six years of experience in Taiwan versus six years of experience with L1 learners. Relevant experience counts for a great deal.

Quote:

If I could change the above language from CELTA to CELTYL certificate I would, but I can't edit the poll questions anymore, and you're absolutely right Rooster; nonetheless, it�s too late to change it. In fact, I am thinking about taking a CELTYL course in the near future.

Okay, noted, I won't bring it up again.

BTW, I've been thinking of doing CELTYL, as well. For CELTA holders, it's a mere two-week extension course (called the YL extension course) and not particularly expensive. I'd learn something, get something to put on my resume for minimal cost and effort, and maybe have a cool two-week vacation in some exotic country. Laughing

Oh, cool! They have center in EGYPT!

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Not to mention that just because someone has a degree or a CELTYL that they have learned anything after completing the course.

Some people read about language learning for fun. Not to mention that some people like Rooster and myself have spent many years learning languages ourselves. I hope that people who learn languages would have an idea of what works and what does not.

Display posts from previous:

	Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Taiwan	All times are GMT Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Teaching Jobs in China