Job Discussion Forums

[wayne1523]

May I ask an English teacher, or anybody with knowledge regarding the following questions for some assistance on a few select questions that I am having some difficulty with on my CELTA Pre-Interview Task? I'm trying to get into CELTA school in Toronto. It's kind of urgent because the slot I'm trying to enroll in is starting to get full, so I received a call from one of the administrators to tell me to hurry up if I want to be in class by May 31st or else I'm going to have to wait till July. If this is an inappropriate location to make this post, I'd like to request for the moderator to relocate it to its proper area since I don't have authorized access to the other forums. If anybody can help it would be greatly appreciated and if not, I'll just go with what I think I know which I presume to be, well, sort of incorrect.

How would you explain to a language learner the difference in meaning between the following pairs of
sentences:
a) When he arrived, we had eaten dinner.
b) When he arrived, we ate dinner.
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c) By this time next year, I will have finished college.
d) By this time next year, I will be finishing college.
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e) I've been busy all morning, I've painted the porch.
f) I've been busy all morning, I've been painting the porch.

[Justin Trullinger]

Short answer- I'd refer to the book "How English Works," by Michael Swan and a coauthor who's name I've forgotter, for simple explanation. (I actually rather suspect that these questions came directly from HEW, though it's been a while since I used it, so of course I'm not sure. In any case, it contains the answers you seek.)

The slightly harder but not very hard answer is that you just need to think about the second action a little in each case.

Will it be, or was it, completed or ongoing? Did he arrive home to dinner, or to empty plates, a messy table, and an angry family? (Pictures could do this.)

In all cases the distinction is the state of the second action. Could be drawn, could be timelined...

Best,
Justin

[powerrose]

CELTA loooooooooooooves timelines. So say you'd use a timeline, refer to Swan, and you are golden.

[johnslat]

Dear wayne1523,

How would you explain to a language learner the difference in meaning between the following pairs of sentences:

It all has to do with time relationships.

a) When he arrived, we had eaten dinner.
b) When he arrived, we ate dinner.

a) Your dinner was fiished before he arrived.
b) You ate dinner after he arrived.

c) By this time next year, I will have finished college.
d) By this time next year, I will be finishing college.

c) By this time next year, your college studies will be over.
d) By this time next year, you will still be in college, near the end of your studies

e) I've been busy all morning, I've painted the porch.
f) I've been busy all morning, I've been painting the porch.

e) The painting is finished.
f) the painting is still not finished.

Regards,
John

[fluffyhamster]

Hmm, timelines...anyone fancy diagramming examples like I left university before I'd taken the final exams and She sacked him before he'd had a chance to explain himself - probably not, eh!

But seriously, although it's worth becoming familiar with the basics of timeline drawing (see 'Suggested reading' below), I'm not sure that timelines are needed for much more than representing perfect aspect (generally describable as "retrospective" relative to whichever general "reference time" (past, present or future)), and assuming that purely verbal explanation of a form's function would fail, there are of course other "diagrammatic" possibilities that do less to "upset" the word order and thus functionality of the original text.

For example:

[BrentBlack]

So I am in the same boat as Wayne. Is it really important that one uses a book and refer to certain authors? I suppose it makes you sound smarter and more interested, but isn't the point to kind of gauge your mastery of the English language, as opposed to you research skills? Either way, I will be getting one of the suggested books, especially since it seems it improves chances of acceptance if you play their game.

Anyhow, this is what I have done so far for the same section:

Task: When I arrived at the station the train left.
Answer: The train left precisely at the moment of arrival.

Task: When I arrived at the station, the train was leaving.
Answer: The train was in the process of leaving at the moment of arrival.

Task: When I arrived at the station the train had left.
Answer: The train was already gone at the moment of arrival.


Now, I have identified the difference in meaning between the sentences, but I have not identified the grammatical structure of left, was leaving, and had left. Does grammatical structure=tense? Thanks. I will be purchasing a Swan book shortly.

Also, Wayne did you say you were applying to ILA in HCMC? It seems I remember that from another thread. If you are, I would be interested in discussing the process with you, as I am interested in taking the October course. Thanks mates!

B.B.

oh yeah, how can we add an avatar? Is it dependent on how many posts one makes?

[johnslat]

Dear BrentBlack.

Grammatical structures, huh?

Maybe this is what they want.


left: past tense, irregular verb

was leaving: past progressive (or continuous) tense: auxiliary verb "was," past tense of verb "to be;" main verb "leaving," present participle form

had left: past perfect tense: auxiliary verb "had," past tense of the verb "to have;" main verb "left," past participle form, irregular verb

For avatars, I think it's 100 posts. There is (or will be) an "Avatar Control Panel" on your profile:

"Displays a small graphic image below your details in posts. Only one image can be displayed at a time, its width can be no greater than 80 pixels, the height no greater than 80 pixels, and the file size no more than 6 KB. Current Image

Delete Image
Link to off-site Avatar:
Enter the URL of the location containing the Avatar image you wish to link to."

Regards,
John

[BrentBlack]

Grammatical structure is what is written on the application task as follows:

(i) What is the difference in meaning between the following sentences?
(ii) Identify the grammatical structure underlined in each sentence.

Based on your answer, John, grammatical structure = tense. Right? I have no idea.

[fluffyhamster]

Hi Brent! I wasn't suggesting that anyone turn the actual CELTA tasks into a veritable research paper to be submitted replete with potentially stuffy references, but simply offering some reading suggestions should Wayne (and anyone else in his position, such as yourself) still have questions regarding the meanings at play in the examples (and the explanations offered by previous posters to explain 'em), or the practical how-to's of drawing timelines and their general utility-necessity (or not as the case may be IMHO) etc. But one does unfortunately have to "play the game" to some extent at least (in the form of amassing and somehow conveying linguisticy or even plain old language knowledge-ability), if one is hoping to be a genuine English teacher!

Anyway, in answer to your question about 'grammatical structure=tense?', well, there is more to meaning than just tense whenever there is more than one verb in the verb phrase(s):

arrived...(x)
...left......(x)

(=No difference in tense - both Simple past, which is one of the only two true tenses in English*, the other being Simple present - which coupled with the subordinate status of When I arrived at the station explains why the actions are interpreted as quite close to each other, perhaps as you say almost temporally simultaneous, rather than unfolding in a more linearly extended A then B fashion [an interpretation that John for one would appear to favour], as is definitely the case in the tense-identical but [implicitly or explicitly [co-ordinate(d)]] sure sequence of equal clauses/events in e.g. I arrived at the station, [[and] then] the train left, [[and] then] I went home).


...arrived.........(x)
was leaving (~~~)

(=was is the past form of BE, but this is more than Simple past tense construction-wise i.e. the BE here isn't the main/lexical verb [like in SVC clauses: I was an English teacher, for a while] but an auxiliary that, coupled with the -ing of leaving forms progressive/continuous [here, Past ~] aspect; and as the term 'progressive/continuous' implies, the event is seen as having a longer unfolding/"non-punctual" duration, which explains why it seems to "surround", extend either side almost of the simpler verb phrase [and indeed can itself form the explicit background/reference time: I arrived when/as the train was leaving]).


arrived
had left

(See my above post for an idea of how I'd diagram this one)

(=had is the past form of HAVE, but this is more than Simple past tense construction-wise i.e. the HAVE here isn't the main/lexical verb [like in SVO clauses: I had a million dollars last year, but now...] but an auxiliary that, coupled with the "past participle" (third form of the verb) e.g. leave - left - left** forms perfect [here, Past ~] aspect; and as the term 'perfect' implies, the event is seen as [having been] complete[d], which means it can only really have occured or been a possibility at some point prior to the general reference time/'time being talked about', which explains the "past in the past" nature of Past perfect/the Pluperfect).


*If tense is strictly equated with one verb's inflection rather than any compounding of verbs.
**Other verbs have more distinctive past participles e.g. take - took - taken.

[fluffyhamster]

I see that John answered whilst I was composing my (lengthy) reply! And as far as the basic terminology goes, and for the sort of reply/level they're "asking for", what John's said is fine, but I hope what I've added helps consolidate your understanding further (and if it's all a bit much, perhaps come back to it sometime later and see if more sinks in! ).

[BrentBlack]

Ok, so maybe I missed it somewhere. What does grammatical structure mean, and what am I supposed to identify? Am I just supposed to write that the grammatical structure of left is simple past tense and helps to explain how the arrival at the station and the train leaving occur simultaneously?

Brent

[johnslat]

Dear Brent Black,

Well, to the best of my admittedly incomplete understanding, grammatical structure most commonly refers to phrases and clauses (e.g. participle phrases, prepositional phrases, adverb clauses, noun clauses, etc.)
So, in your three examples, the grammatical structure would likely be

left: verb

was leaving: verb phrase (auxiliary + main verb)

had left: verb phrase (auxiliary + main verb)

SO, perhaps the term "verb phrase" should be added to the last two.

Regards,
John

[fluffyhamster]

[BrentBlack]

John,

Thanks, that helps with building an understanding of how to answer these questions. Also, helped to clear up fluffy's response. I am a total newbie at this stuff. What I find interesting through all of it is that I feel like I write well, and have been told I write well throughout all my years at university. I am surprised by how little grammatical knowledge I actually have about the language I speak and write. I suppose, I KNOW how to speak and write properly, but I do not KNOW why it is proper. Well, I suppose this is where the adventure starts!!!

-Brent

[fluffyhamster]