Job Discussion Forums

[Andy123]

It is amazing to me that when you catch one of the locals cheating or stealing, they get angry. Not only do they get angry but become indignant. They some how feel they have the right.

I know, I know, I have been in Asia for many, many years. "You rich, I not. You foreigner, I native. No problem, normal here. Accept."

The stealing and cheating thing I accept. It happens everywhere in the world. Many times you open yourself up to these situations by not being careful. But when you catch them and confront them, they get angry and will push it to the point of wanting to fight.

Go figure.

[hot_rock]

The whole "they hate to lose face" idea is -IMHO- a tad overstressed in general (people hate to be embarassed and look stupid anywhere in the world), but when it comes to the really serious issues, I believe its accurate. Because individual responsibility is that bit more apparant, and meaningful, to people here, the shame of being seen to be irresponsible is also mulitplied; and hence we have a greater tendancy to go into a 'panic mode' of lies, feux- or genuine-anger, and uncooperation.

In other words, the consequences for idividuals that *beep* up are higher -in general- that in the West, and these consequences are far more likely to manifest themselves regardless of whether or not the person apologises and admits guilt; as opposed to in the West where their is greater leniency for people "holding their hands up", as it were. here, you *beep* up,you've fucked up, regardless of whether you apologise straight away and promise never to do it again.

I wish you'd give some details of your situation.

there's always the chance it was you in the wrong the whole time; to be honest, I'm always going on the defensive, in what may be pereceived as a rude manner, then getting home and realising that I myself was being a tad irrational or, getting back to the OP, realising that I was forgetting the fact that the person in question was not "acting deceptively" or "being unfair", but in fact merely striving to their job responsively. Of course, the other half of the time I get home and gloat over the fact that I was in the right; my point is, think looooong and hard before you get into one of those brief, mildly-heated debates that we all know are that bit more meaningful here.

Finally, on a personal note, if you genuinely think that SE asians (or Vietnamese) are more dishonest or anger-prone than people in the West, as in some kind of inherent psycho-gene, my advice is to move back to the West.

[DNK]

[shanewarne]

Maybe you stepped on his foot. I know if someone stepped on my feet I'd be steaming with anger.

Be more careful next time.

[blateson]

Shopping in Vietnam, buying food, and even doing business is not a particularly enjoyable experience. Hassles are constantly popping up. For food it gets to the point that you know of three or four different places near your home, at least I do, and I just go to any one of them based on timings and feelings. Sometimes I will avoid a particular seller when they start to get moody, raise their prices, look at you like you aren't spending enough, or maybe a family member starts acting disrespectful. You would think that the law of business -- respect the customer -- would have some ground in Vietnam. Instead it's completely absent.

As for bigger shopping like electronics, clothing and the like, one really has to take a few yearly trips to Bangkok (few times a year). The selection is ten-fold, prices more negotiable, and although not completely non-existent, fights and arguing don't break out so easily and so often. And with so many more vendors you can easily move to the next one if you don't like what you see or hear.

Renting a room or apartment has to be one of the bigger headaches. With every little news announcement, "Water prices to go up", "Inflation," "gasoline up" and so on, they stick the newspaper in your face and kindly tell you they'll be raising your rent again. I stood my ground and, although I avoided the large increase, they openly hated my guts. The landlord (husband) was walking all around the building yelling and screaming in Vietnamese for 30 minutes after that. Still, better to be hated than humiliated.

[snollygoster]

A Viet caught out for lying or cheating? Don't be silly-they don't do that!
He he- S.N.A.F.U.
School girls play a playground game called "xao xao" and it revolves around who can tell the most believable or damaging lie.

[Andy123]

[hot_rock]

Why do you say that? Too many 'beeps' in my message? or are you attacking the actual points that I'm making? I teach at VUS, VAS and occasionally at ACET.

[Andy123]

[DNK]

Andy, that's a lot better English than most locals. Just saying.

blateson: I am curious as to how the conversation over the price increase went so badly that the guy was walking around yelling for a half hour... I can imagine some convos, but what was that one in specific?

[hot_rock]

haha, nice to see a bit of spice coming back at me for a change.

I appreciate your concern, my spelling is getting worse, rather than better, as I get older. But to be honest, it goes down hill even further when typing on this message board; I'd rather spend my time getting more words down than make sure the spelling's 100% correct.

I wasn't "bragging about working at VUS/VAS, but by the way, your "50% of their teachers don't have uni degrees" figure is clearly pulled straight out of thin air, because its nonsense. I've met many foreign teachers here and very very few don't have a degree.

Thankfully I myself do have a degree, a First Class one at that and from a very reputable university. I'd rather have that than good spelling/typing skills.

ciao

[hot_rock]

I certainly don't know any who didn't graduate from high school. I'm not denying that there will be some, but I certainly haven't met any.

But that's beside the point; its clear to anyone reading this that your figure of 50% was, shall we say, "approximate" to say the least, and not to be taken seriously.

The main motivation for actually returning to retort some more, is to point out that firstly, one of the errors you kindly pointed out is in fact an incidence of the use of British, rather than American, English;

APOLOGISE (hence also APOLOGISES). You're clearly not British, or Australian (the latter beign a group who should use BrE though; I fear, however, that their z/s etiquette will have by now went in the same direction as their vernacular and accent). But even as an American ESL teacher, you should still be aware of BrE, and be fully respectful of it. To accuse a British person who has a better university degree than yourself (since you cleverly brought that up) of being unfit to "teach what I do not know" with this nonsense as a central point is actually quite pathetic.

I don't need to point out that British English is that of Oxford and Cambridge; universities, teaching aides and certification.

What took your hastily-formed critique of my heart-felt contribution to this interesting topic to a even softer ground was this little gem;

"Hyphens and semi-colons".

I honestly believe that I utilise these to great effect; if not on online forums but certainly in more serious efforts, such as university essays that receive full marks at Honours level, and exam scripts. Incidentally having re-read my post I'm certain that their usage was, even there, practically flawless technically, and absolutely well-placed, timed, and thought-through. Perhaps you have been teaching ESL for a little too long, to the point where you forget that punctuation is actually something to be taught, mastered and used artfully; not merely something which one teaching Asian learners has -quite rightly- come to only hope for even in its most basic forms (comma, full stop etc.)

You also point out my use of "faux- or genuine-anger"; what is wrong with writing that, please? I'm sure you will find something, but please be kind enough to say what, from one fellow teacher to another and all that. Whatever the intricacies of this specific criticism, I am certain that my choice of it to support my argument should be praised, not derided.



Finally, I must add -in your defence- that I actually feel a little sorry for you. You clearly would not have taken the time to attack me in this manner had I fully agreed with your OP; your ingenious theorem that Vietnamese people "get angry all the time and act irrationally". I'm sorry that I felt it my duty to part-rebutt your claims. As I recall, I touched on the notions of responsibility, and of course "faux-" versus "genuine-" emotion. If you discuss my very right to access this profession, and hence this forum, please address my argument first, grammar mistakes second (whatever they are). Please, if you insist on attacking me and accusing me of being unfit to teach, do it on the level my post is on, or at least somewhere close.

Essentially, I write very well and will not dropped on by people who sound perfectly as if it is time for them to depart not only the forum but also the country;before you bring anyone else do wn into your "depressed and bitter ex-pat hole". Truly abismal. I bet the guy was right to lose the rag with you.

[deadlift]

[deadlift]

To get back on topic...

I know people in my home country that would rather throw a punch than admit they were in the wrong. I had a "friend" deny to my face an assault on another friend that I witnessed.

I've also had a cab driver follow me into my hem to return the small bag of groceries that I left in his taxi. I've had an old woman give me back a 500,000 dong note that I mistakenly gave her for a bottle of water. I've had a hotel clerk waive the laundry charge because there was a small error in accounting (which I would not even have noticed).

[Galileo]

Most of those times I've witnessed locals explode with anger don't involve foreigners. When people feel they aren't getting the respect they deserve under Confucianism, they can become furious. It may not make sense to a westerner. I knew a foreigner who made the mistake of calling an old Vietnamese man "em" (younger brother/sister). The old man became visibly angry. A Vietnamese person told me later that if a local had done the same thing it could have led to a fight. I've seen arguments over minor traffic accidents escalate into fights. I've seen men assault their wives/girlfriends in public several times. I've heard middle aged men angrily chastising a young girl in front of them for driving too slowly. In such situations it often doesn't matter who is right or wrong. What matters is who has more status.