Job Discussion Forums

[Mr. English]

Just what is the law of the PRC? The Chinese immigration authorities, who presumably know Chinese immigration law and law concerning visas, issue F visas to almost anyone, with the only document required being a passport, nothing to document that you are here for "official negotiation or representation" (and this is a new one to me as to the purpose of F visas), no forms to fill out, no questions asked, no nothing. The PSB must, must, be aware of what is going on. Last spring, when the knife attacks occurred in several kindergartens, I was working part-time in three of them. At one of them I had a time card that was in the slot at the front door. The police visited the schools shortly after the attacks and I was out of a job at all three in no time, apparently because they did not want foreigners without Z visas working in kindergartens anymore. But other than losing the jobs nothing happened to me. I am convinced the PSB knows what I do here, but when I register after every border run I have no problems.

Why no problems? Some of the money for the F visas gets spread around? The employers who want to hire part-time foreign employees and not pay for Z visas have enough collective political clout to insist that it be easy for foreigners to stay? The government wants foreigners here "illegally" so that if on the spur of some moment they decide they want to boot a bunch of us they have a great reason immediately at hand? I don't know all the reasons, but I am convinced that the Chinese government knows exactly what goes on, and chooses to let it stay this way. They are making these rules; I am following their rules. To you who say I am here illegally, I say baloney. If it's illegal then why do Chinese consulates issue F visas to anyone who asks for one? You know Chinese law better than the Chinese officials at Chinese consulates?

Aside from the legality issue, as a practical matter there are many foreigners doing this. If you don't work full-time for an employer who will sponsor a Z visa there is no other way aside from registering a business. And there are many employers, good ones too, I have never had any problems getting paid or with anything else, in China who want only part-time people, who do not want to sponsor anyone. Perhaps one day I will register a business, it is a goal, but only after the business is to the point that it justifies the hassle and expense of registering a business. From what I gather it is not a simple matter. And why bother? All the signs point to Get F Visa, Go to Work. The Chinese government pushes you in that direction. They make it as easy as ABC to get an F visa. They make it extremely difficult to register a business. They make getting a Z visa dependent on a single employer when many employers do not want this role and many foreign workers do not want it either.

Last for this post, as to your statement, LanGuTou, that "you people make life difficult for those of us who have done things properly", wrong; it is the Chinese government that makes your life difficult. They are making the rules here, and the rule again is Get F Visa, Go to Work.

[flyingscotsman]

Mr English while you raise some valid points I don't agree with your logic.

First its no secret that its easy to get a valid F VISA in the usa very easily. In my case the choices were get a tourist visa for 30 days or an f visa for one year with 90 day stays. The price is the exact same so why not go for the f visa? As the thought of going to HK or other points every 3 months is not scary and maybe even comforting.

But the argument is flawed because the f visa is never designed to be legally worked on, only designed for business people to come to China to do business.

Does the Chinese government KNOW that people come and work on visas beside Z and RP ? Of course, don't fool yourself , the Chinese Government knows EVERYTHING... but perhaps they have more pressing issues to deal with ( like keeping 1.3 billion people in line) than worrying about some dude making some extra coin on a business visa.

So I will tell you that I am NOT passing judgment on you or anyone else about your visa status. HOWEVER I do laugh at you paying exorbitant rates to procure a visa ( even though I understand that you weigh the cost of a trip home vs the visa expense and it balances out).

Happy New Year to all...

[LanGuTou]

Tell me one thing. How on earth do you get a visa without filling out a form? On every occasion I have been through the process, be it 'L', 'F' or 'Z' of which at some point I have applied for all three, there has been a standard visa application form to fill out and there is a question that clearly states the purpose for your visit to the PRC. I don't deny that practically anyone can get 'L' or 'F' visas but neither is for the purpose of carrying out paid employment. You have to sign a visa application form and you are stating that the purpose of your stay in China is true and genuine. Therefore, if you get a 'F' visa with the intention of taking up employment, you are making a false declaration.

As for the effects of illegal freelancing in China or any other country, there are costs associated with establishing and operating legitimate, registered businesses. These costs have to be soaked up in the price of goods or services provided. People working on the wrong type of visa and have illegal, non registered businesses can undercut these prices because their overheads are dramatically less. But it is fake, just like a fake Rolex watch or fake Nike trainers. Yes, it does go on but is it fair?

People that work freelance in China on a 'L' or 'F' visa are:

- Taking up employment on the wrong type of visa.
- Are operating an illegal business or enterprise.
- Have avoided costs associated with registering a business.
- Failed to register for income and goods tax.
- Not declaring income for tax purposes.
- Have no liability or business insurance.

I contribute to several business forums online. This topic was recently discussed and one leading Beijing lawyer suggested that foreigners that freelance with no registered business and the wrong visa are contravening no less than 38 pieces of labor and immigration legislation as enacted by the PRC. It is also very damaging to the interests and safeguards of legitimate business operations both Chinese and foreign owned.

[flyingscotsman]

[clownshow]

[choudoufu]

[LanGuTou]

[LanGuTou]

[Mr. English]

I answer a few of the points raised. As to obtaining the visa, I thought I made it clear before, but here it is in detail. I mailed my passport, a passport-sized photo, and a note reiterating that I wanted the 2-year multiple-entry visa to the agent; she is in Shenzhen, I am in Guangzhou, not so far apart but easier to ship anyway. The only thing we had discussed on the telephone before was the term of the visa and the price (I have dealt with her before so this was all we needed to talk about). I sent nothing else. 19 days later she called and said she had my passport with the visa. What she said to the consulate officials, or to any middle people between her and the consulate officials, I have no idea; I have never asked and she has never said. I have never given her any information about me, except that she knows I live in Guangzhou, she has my telephone number and email address, and she has obviously seen my passport. I have never filled out any forms, have never given her any information about what I am doing here. Also, the Chinese authorities must be aware that I was in China when I got the visa, because the first thing I did after picking up my passport was to cross the border from Shenzhen to Hong Kong. The border people photocopy your passport every time you cross, so they would know where I was.

You write, LanGuTou: "I myself was operating a business prior to formal registration but I was doing so in the full knowledge of the authorities and working on a 'z' visa as supported by a university. I can accept that situations exist whereby people have to bend the rules to get a satisfactory outcome. Of course no successful business person does things entirely by the book. The thing that I cannot accept is people like the OP in this case who extol the virtues of completely flaunting the law and play it down as some trivial little matter. Or to put it his way, working on 'F' visas is the way to go!"

I don't see how this is so different from what I am doing. I am doing so in the full knowledge of the authorities; I cannot accept that they do not know what I am doing; see my post above. "Completely flaunting the law"? My passport goes to a Chinese consulate and they put a visa in it; I made no misrepresentations, no representations at all; they are the authorities and they issue the visa. I am not flaunting anything or saying that anything is trivial; I am saying that this is the way it is.

And as you clearly understand, one cannot simply walk into China and open a business, unless perhaps you have pockets as deep as General Motors or some such outfit; you need to make connections and get something up and running before you can register. An F visa is the way to go until you are in the position you need to be in.

[7969]

several years ago, i obtained a visa in almost the same manner as mr english. the agent filled in any form that was needed. i just sent the passport, photo, phone number and paid for the visa.

the authorities here bend the rules. locals bend the rules. as for us laowai, when in rome, do as the romans do. that works for me.

[choudoufu]

ummm, mr. engrish, you be changing yer story....you've conveniently left out the part about the passport being sent to los angeles, where your agent's agent commits fraud on your behalf.

[Mr. English]

I did not conveniently leave out anything; it is all there for you to read. I have no idea whether anyone committed fraud; my guess is she simply shipped them the passport with a note that said: "2-year multiple-entry F", and not a word more.

[Mr. English]

And perhaps I need to add for your sake, I did not know in advance that the passport was going to Los Angeles; I had no idea where she would send it and I did not ask.

[LanGuTou]

Well Mr English, I will have my final say on your situation.

You may not want to admit this or unknowingly, you have committed or been part of a number of serious offences.

You have been working and continue to do so on the wrong type of visa, you have handed your passport to a third party who used fraudulent means to obtain another visa, you cannot hold two visas at the same time so there must have been a period between the LA consulate canceling your previous visa and adding a new visa when you were in the PRC with no active visa, you will leave the PRC periodically as required by the conditions of your multi-entry visa and then re-enter each time falsely declaring your reason for your stay on the entry and exit dockets at customs, you are soliciting freelance work without holding the licence to be able to do so and also you have non declared income. That is to say, as you have no legitimate business background, you cannot register for taxation. The money that you earn is clearly going straight into your pocket. That is tax avoidance and is a crime in any country.

Your justification is that the authorities must know about these things and are turning a blind eye. Therefore, it must be legal to do things this way. Chinese people bend rules all the time but they invariably do things on the back of "guanxi". You are a foreigner living in China and, sooner or later, you will not be so lucky!

At any time, if you are fortunate, you may just face deportation and a periodic ban from re-entering China. If the authorities so desire, they have enough on you to make things a whole lot worse.

My recommendations are;

Find a teaching job that gives you a proper visa sponsor and the documentation to get a 'Z' visa. You can still do your freelance work on the side but at least you will have a satisfactory cover for your activities.

or

Register your business activities and do things legitimately. For less than what you paid to that agent for your 'F' visa, you can go through the registration process. You will be asked to put up registered capital but you have one year to get that money together and, even if you don't have it, there are companies that will loan it to you until you pass the annual inspection. You also have a legitimate licence and government approved company chop so you can work legally on the correct type of visa.

Sure, it is more expensive and arduous than the way you are doing things. I would rather do it this way than take the risks that you are doing.

[tr_waters]

Fishy fishy fishy