Job Discussion Forums

[Mr. English]

Just what is the law of the PRC? The Chinese immigration authorities, who presumably know Chinese immigration law and law concerning visas, issue F visas to almost anyone, with the only document required being a passport, nothing to document that you are here for "official negotiation or representation" (and this is a new one to me as to the purpose of F visas), no forms to fill out, no questions asked, no nothing. The PSB must, must, be aware of what is going on. Last spring, when the knife attacks occurred in several kindergartens, I was working part-time in three of them. At one of them I had a time card that was in the slot at the front door. The police visited the schools shortly after the attacks and I was out of a job at all three in no time, apparently because they did not want foreigners without Z visas working in kindergartens anymore. But other than losing the jobs nothing happened to me. I am convinced the PSB knows what I do here, but when I register after every border run I have no problems.

Why no problems? Some of the money for the F visas gets spread around? The employers who want to hire part-time foreign employees and not pay for Z visas have enough collective political clout to insist that it be easy for foreigners to stay? The government wants foreigners here "illegally" so that if on the spur of some moment they decide they want to boot a bunch of us they have a great reason immediately at hand? I don't know all the reasons, but I am convinced that the Chinese government knows exactly what goes on, and chooses to let it stay this way. They are making these rules; I am following their rules. To you who say I am here illegally, I say baloney. If it's illegal then why do Chinese consulates issue F visas to anyone who asks for one? You know Chinese law better than the Chinese officials at Chinese consulates?

Aside from the legality issue, as a practical matter there are many foreigners doing this. If you don't work full-time for an employer who will sponsor a Z visa there is no other way aside from registering a business. And there are many employers, good ones too, I have never had any problems getting paid or with anything else, in China who want only part-time people, who do not want to sponsor anyone. Perhaps one day I will register a business, it is a goal, but only after the business is to the point that it justifies the hassle and expense of registering a business. From what I gather it is not a simple matter. And why bother? All the signs point to Get F Visa, Go to Work. The Chinese government pushes you in that direction. They make it as easy as ABC to get an F visa. They make it extremely difficult to register a business. They make getting a Z visa dependent on a single employer when many employers do not want this role and many foreign workers do not want it either.

Last for this post, as to your statement, LanGuTou, that "you people make life difficult for those of us who have done things properly", wrong; it is the Chinese government that makes your life difficult. They are making the rules here, and the rule again is Get F Visa, Go to Work.

[flyingscotsman]

Mr English while you raise some valid points I don't agree with your logic.

First its no secret that its easy to get a valid F VISA in the usa very easily. In my case the choices were get a tourist visa for 30 days or an f visa for one year with 90 day stays. The price is the exact same so why not go for the f visa? As the thought of going to HK or other points every 3 months is not scary and maybe even comforting.

But the argument is flawed because the f visa is never designed to be legally worked on, only designed for business people to come to China to do business.

Does the Chinese government KNOW that people come and work on visas beside Z and RP ? Of course, don't fool yourself , the Chinese Government knows EVERYTHING... but perhaps they have more pressing issues to deal with ( like keeping 1.3 billion people in line) than worrying about some dude making some extra coin on a business visa.

So I will tell you that I am NOT passing judgment on you or anyone else about your visa status. HOWEVER I do laugh at you paying exorbitant rates to procure a visa ( even though I understand that you weigh the cost of a trip home vs the visa expense and it balances out).

Happy New Year to all...

[LanGuTou]

Tell me one thing. How on earth do you get a visa without filling out a form? On every occasion I have been through the process, be it 'L', 'F' or 'Z' of which at some point I have applied for all three, there has been a standard visa application form to fill out and there is a question that clearly states the purpose for your visit to the PRC. I don't deny that practically anyone can get 'L' or 'F' visas but neither is for the purpose of carrying out paid employment. You have to sign a visa application form and you are stating that the purpose of your stay in China is true and genuine. Therefore, if you get a 'F' visa with the intention of taking up employment, you are making a false declaration.

As for the effects of illegal freelancing in China or any other country, there are costs associated with establishing and operating legitimate, registered businesses. These costs have to be soaked up in the price of goods or services provided. People working on the wrong type of visa and have illegal, non registered businesses can undercut these prices because their overheads are dramatically less. But it is fake, just like a fake Rolex watch or fake Nike trainers. Yes, it does go on but is it fair?

People that work freelance in China on a 'L' or 'F' visa are:

- Taking up employment on the wrong type of visa.
- Are operating an illegal business or enterprise.
- Have avoided costs associated with registering a business.
- Failed to register for income and goods tax.
- Not declaring income for tax purposes.
- Have no liability or business insurance.

I contribute to several business forums online. This topic was recently discussed and one leading Beijing lawyer suggested that foreigners that freelance with no registered business and the wrong visa are contravening no less than 38 pieces of labor and immigration legislation as enacted by the PRC. It is also very damaging to the interests and safeguards of legitimate business operations both Chinese and foreign owned.

[flyingscotsman]

[clownshow]

[choudoufu]