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reddevil79
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 234
Location: Neither here nor there
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 Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I dare say that many of the rioters already have family in jail... |
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ancient_dweller
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 415
Location: Woodland Bench
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I dare say that many of the rioters already have family in jail... |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ancient_dweller wrote: |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424
"we're just showing the rich people we can do what we want" |
I change my mind. This is definitely politically motivated. I think this debate is what swung me...
'Like, it's the Government's fault.'
'Yeah.'
'I don't know.'
'Conservatives.'
'Yeah, whatever, who it is, I don't know.'
Quite a pair of heavyweights. |
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dean_a_jones
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 1151
Location: Wuhan, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Cameron's statement says a lot:
"For me the root cause of this mindless selfishness is the same thing I have spoken about for years: it is a complete lack of responsibility in parts of our society...people allowed to feel that the world owes them something"
In the first part, he could be speaking about the financial crisis and the idiots who have pretty much screwed up the whole system, particularly for those at the bottom.
But the second part, that those at the bottom feel the world owes them something, should be true. Last I checked, in Britain people should be given decent living conditions, a fair chance, a good education and decent wages. I think you will find a lot of people who feel like they are still owed this.
Speech was listed at http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/10/manchester-riots-uk-disorder-day-four-live at 11.45am. |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ancient_dweller wrote: |
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| I dare say that many of the rioters already have family in jail... |
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I dare that many of the rioters have family members who have been molly-coddled (sic) by the law-courts and prisons of this country and therefore have no fear of the law or the punitive penalties that breaking it in this country can bring about. Change that and you'll be getting somewhere. |
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ancient_dweller
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 415
Location: Woodland Bench
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Quite a pair of heavyweights. |
Thought you might be persuaded. |
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reddevil79
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 234
Location: Neither here nor there
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I dare that many of the rioters have family members who have been molly-coddled (sic) by the law-courts and prisons of this country and therefore have no fear of the law or the punitive penalties that breaking it in this country can bring about. Change that and you'll be getting somewhere. |
And you know this how exactly? |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| reddevil79 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I dare that many of the rioters have family members who have been molly-coddled (sic) by the law-courts and prisons of this country and therefore have no fear of the law or the punitive penalties that breaking it in this country can bring about. Change that and you'll be getting somewhere. |
And you know this how exactly? |
From five years of working for the Crown Prosecution Service in London, Sheffield, North Yorkshire, and London again. |
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ancient_dweller
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Posts: 415
Location: Woodland Bench
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| From five years of working for the Crown Prosecution Service in London, Sheffield, North Yorkshire, and London again. |
please shed some light on the reason behind:
the short sentences (that only make people completely unemployable and actually teach them more criminal tricks)
why not - longer sentences?
i guess it is because - in countries like the US, longer sentences do not necessarily reduce crime. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| The CPS? Forgive my naivety, but how does one advocate vigilantism when one has a legal background? |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ancient_dweller wrote: |
Phil, do you agree that poverty may be behind some of these riots? Or do you still think it's liberal rubbish? |
I've already said that I believe there is no REAL poverty in England, and I stand by that, I've also said many of these thugs show no signs of poverty. In addition, Britain is one of the generous welfare states in the world.
I'm not cold and heartless, and I'm prepared to try and understand the criminal mind. I can see the appeal of trying to get things the easy way, if one believes one can get away with it. I'd love an inheritance, a lottery win (unlikely, I don't play!), anything easy and legal, wouldn't we all? However, I don't solve my problems with illegal acts, and those who do should expect to be dealt with accordingly.
In any market economy, wealth and (relative) poverty will always exist side by side, as will givers and takers. Despite reports to the contrary, I believe my country is in pretty good health, and it is the business of those who love their country to ensure that a small criminal element doesn't destroy that.
I don't know if you are British, and how old you are, Ancient Dweller, but for the record, I'm Anglo-Saxon British and 48 years old. I saw the mess that Britain was in the '70, and my young adult days were during the Thatcherite Revolution of the '80s, when Britain became great again, and I don't want that destroyed. |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| The CPS? Forgive my naivety, but how does one advocate vigilantism when one has a legal background? |
If you're referring to my '...me and my mates' quote, I think it's clear that was in reference to your pedantry with regards my non-capitalisation of Proper Nouns, and was in no way a serious call for vigilantism.
I can't find anywhere else in this thread where I might have appeared to be calling for it.
In answer to another poster, before you address the problem of short versus long sentences, you have to address the problem of untold numbers of offenders in this country, and repeat offenders at that, who are time and again given no sentence whatsoever and let back out on to the streets to re-offend. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry for being confused, but it wasn't that clear to me at all. It was hard to see where you were coming from with a few of your statements. That's not being pedantic, I feel. Look back over the post again and I think you'll see that it does indeed look like you were advocating taking the law into your own hands. |
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eurobound
Joined: 04 Apr 2011
Posts: 155
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reddevil79
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 234
Location: Neither here nor there
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| Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| From five years of working for the Crown Prosecution Service in London, Sheffield, North Yorkshire, and London again. |
Fair dos.
I come to this debate with a background in primary teaching in London  |
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