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Roch
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: Ilsan Hogwon Association and St. Andrew's |
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| What should be done by the association about its schools like St. Andrew's that treat their teachers badly? |
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Roch
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Who wants to publicise the stance of the association? |
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Roch
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Come to think of it, a demonstration in front of the the building that houses the association might force them to stop supporting the St. Andrew's Hogwon in their crooked war against one of our fellow expatriotes.
God bless the beleagured teacher and shame on St. Andrew's and the Ilsan-gu Hokwon Association!
Roch |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Roch wrote: |
Come to think of it, a demonstration in front of the the building that houses the association might force them to stop supporting the St. Andrew's Hogwon in their crooked war against one of our fellow expatriotes.
God bless the beleagured teacher and shame on St. Andrew's and the Ilsan-gu Hokwon Association!
Roch |
Come to think of it, a demonstration might get us fined and deported for partaking in activities which are expressly forbidden by our visas.
But do go ahead and demonstrate...and be sure and tell us how it turned out. Good luck in your war for justice!  |
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jazblanc77
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Only bad owners attend hogwan association meetings. At those meetings, they try to set standards like salary caps for teachers, the standardisation of contract terms (like how many vacation days, overtime pay, etc.), and how to deal with any labour disputes. Those associations have been set up to protect the owners and screw the workers, not to improve the industry.
So, what should the hogwan association do about a bad school? They should give the owner a slap on the back for keeping it's workers in their places and the money flow going strong.
It is illegal for foreigners to partake in demonstrations or to become organised, politically or even in a labour union. |
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BigBuds
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Location: Changwon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, there has been a recent court ruling, a few months back, that may have set a precedent to allow foreigners to start a union here. |
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archer904
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| jazblanc77 wrote: |
| It is illegal for foreigners to partake in demonstrations or to become organised, politically or even in a labour union. |
However, it is not against the law for us to form an association, as long as we clearly are not a union. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| archer904 wrote: |
| jazblanc77 wrote: |
| It is illegal for foreigners to partake in demonstrations or to become organised, politically or even in a labour union. |
However, it is not against the law for us to form an association, as long as we clearly are not a union. |
This is like the fourth time I've tried to respond to this post. What's wrong with Dave's? I kept getting error messages.
What is the difference between an association and a union? What can an association do without breaking the law? Can one pass out literature telling other foreigners about Korean laws, what recourse they have, assisting them if they are in some kind of trouble etc...? |
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Samantha
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Location: Jinan-dong Hwaseong
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| archer904 wrote: |
| jazblanc77 wrote: |
| It is illegal for foreigners to partake in demonstrations or to become organised, politically or even in a labour union. |
However, it is not against the law for us to form an association, as long as we clearly are not a union. |
This is like the fourth time I've tried to respond to this post. What's wrong with Dave's? I kept getting error messages.
What is the difference between an association and a union? What can an association do without breaking the law? Can one pass out literature telling other foreigners about Korean laws, what recourse they have, assisting them if they are in some kind of trouble etc...? |
I would think a union would be a group of people that gather to discuss issues facing themselves and others in the same line of work. The members of the group would then pay dues to a governing/oversight board in the attempt to change the system.
An association would do the same thing without the dues.
So I think it's the idea of the money. Unions also tend to be mandatory whereas an association is almost always voluntary.
But that's just my 2 cents worth  |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Can the Hogwan Association be held legally liable for the actions of any of its members? Probably not, but if they encourage such behavior, they should be. |
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archer904
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
What is the difference between an association and a union? What can an association do without breaking the law? Can one pass out literature telling other foreigners about Korean laws, what recourse they have, assisting them if they are in some kind of trouble etc...? |
A union represents individual workers, engages in collective bargaining, negotiates agreements, and can organize strikes.
An association does not represent individual workers, but the industry as a whole. It may NOT engage in collective bargaining, negotiate on behalf of workers, or organize strikes.
The way I picture it running (and I am currently the Executive Director of a national trade associate with 160 member companies, and non-profit status under the IRS) is the following:
The association will collect nominal dues from members. For the dues members pay, the association has to provide services to members that they will find valuable enough to pay dues for. Such services could include: (1) Access to a lawyer that will provide legal advice, tell you what your rights are, and if necessary, refer you to counsel that can represent you (or possibly send a letter on your behalf, or send a letter representing the association...I still have to check out what we can and can't do) (2) Provide a "rescue network" so that if you are fired and kicked out of your apartment, you will still have a place to sleep at night, at least for a while, (3) Provide access to the association wiki, written by our lawyer, that has tons of information about how your employer should deal with you (and advice about how to deal with them (4) Provide data about which schools pay how much (5) Maintain their own file of hagwan and recruiter complaints, sort of like a Better Business Bureau (6) Represent foreign English teachers to the Korean government and media, so that our problems and issues are known to others, (7) Alert members on changes to laws that may affect their employment.
I'm sure we can think of more benefits as well. That's just a start. |
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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds like a good idea to me. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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You guys pay and I'll set it up.  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| ChuckECheese wrote: |
| You guys pay and I'll set it up. |
Why don't we organize some kind of association, then? If anyone is interested, they can PM me. I just am skeptical that foreigners actually want to band together to assist others. I could be wrong. I don't mind volunteering to help out. |
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merkurix
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Location: Not far from the deep end.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| archer904 wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
What is the difference between an association and a union? What can an association do without breaking the law? Can one pass out literature telling other foreigners about Korean laws, what recourse they have, assisting them if they are in some kind of trouble etc...? |
A union represents individual workers, engages in collective bargaining, negotiates agreements, and can organize strikes.
An association does not represent individual workers, but the industry as a whole. It may NOT engage in collective bargaining, negotiate on behalf of workers, or organize strikes.
The way I picture it running (and I am currently the Executive Director of a national trade associate with 160 member companies, and non-profit status under the IRS) is the following:
The association will collect nominal dues from members. For the dues members pay, the association has to provide services to members that they will find valuable enough to pay dues for. Such services could include: (1) Access to a lawyer that will provide legal advice, tell you what your rights are, and if necessary, refer you to counsel that can represent you (or possibly send a letter on your behalf, or send a letter representing the association...I still have to check out what we can and can't do) (2) Provide a "rescue network" so that if you are fired and kicked out of your apartment, you will still have a place to sleep at night, at least for a while, (3) Provide access to the association wiki, written by our lawyer, that has tons of information about how your employer should deal with you (and advice about how to deal with them (4) Provide data about which schools pay how much (5) Maintain their own file of hagwan and recruiter complaints, sort of like a Better Business Bureau (6) Represent foreign English teachers to the Korean government and media, so that our problems and issues are known to others, (7) Alert members on changes to laws that may affect their employment.
I'm sure we can think of more benefits as well. That's just a start. |
This could probably be a good solution for us long-term people, but the vast, vast majority of foreigners are transient workers who will only do this for one year (maybe two?) and may not express an interest in forking over member dues for the short amount of time that they are here. I don't mean to sound pessimist or anything, but compared to short term expat folks, us "lifers" are a very tiny minority. For this to be effective, you need a lot of support from a lot of expats. Let's say it becomes big. This could create intense scrutiny by both Korean Immigration and Labor bureaucrats and it will only be a matter of time that they discover something wrong or illegal, or lobby for a law to prevent any kind of large scale foreign activity. |
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