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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Coming from Krishnas, this is simply hilarious. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls ... |
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A strong case for what? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Well, at least an apparently logical case is made that there has been suppression and/or ignorance (on the part of some vested sectarian interests) of historical evidence gleaned from the Dead Sea Scrolls, relating to the roots of Christianity.
Although the author of the article is associated in some way with the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, it may be that his viewpoint also reflects some Hindu sectarian attitudes (fueled by annoyance at the way so-called Christian missionaries have operated in India ...)
I think that it's an important topic worth looking into - beginning with the books mentioned in the article...
The contents of the first scrolls released by the Ecole Biblique created such a stir in the intellectual world that no further scrolls were available for examination until an unknown defector working inside the Ecole Biblique leaked out photo copies of the remaining texts to Professor Robert Eisenman of California State University. The first photocopies of the Dead Sea Scrolls began arriving at Professor Eisenman's office in September of 1989 and the last photocopy arrived in late autumn in 1990. This was indeed theological espionage and intrigue at its best.
Two weeks after receiving the last document Professor Eisenman published a two volume edition containing photocopies of all the scrolls under the title The Facsimile Edition of the Dead Sea Scrolls. At this point the Vatican got involved up to their neck in the politics of trying to suppress the publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls but ultimately failed. Scholars and theologians of integrity soon began the translation of the remaining Dead Sea Scrolls and the cat was out of the bag!
By the time scholars completed the translation work on the Dead Sea Scrolls one very important fact immerged - something that probably no one expected. Nowhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls was the name of Jesus mentioned - shocking indeed. Nor did the popular Christian view of early Christianity find any support in the new translations.
To summarize Professor N.S. Rajaram in his book The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Crisis of Christianity,the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls challenge the two most fundamental beliefs of Christianity: the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and Christianity as the embodiment of the message of Christ. Both these are put in jeopardy by the Dead Sea Scrolls and thus it becomes understandable why the Catholic Church procrastinated in making the Dead Sea Scrolls available to the world...
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-07/editorials1564.htm
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like a big conspiracy. You got IGTG's mental illness?
Photocopies of the scrolls? Were they xeroxing the scrolls late at night in some office?
Please, you believe in a funny gay guy who prances around with tigers and rabbits. What credibility do you as a krishna have on ANYTHING? |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Well, at least an apparently logical case is made that there has been suppression and/or ignorance (on the part of some vested sectarian interests) of historical evidence gleaned from the Dead Sea Scrolls, relating to the roots of Christianity.
Although the author of the article is associated in some way with the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, it may be that his viewpoint also reflects some Hindu sectarian attitudes (fueled by annoyance at the way so-called Christian missionaries have operated in India ...)
I think that it's an important topic worth looking into - beginning with the books mentioned in the article...
The contents of the first scrolls released by the Ecole Biblique created such a stir in the intellectual world that no further scrolls were available for examination until an unknown defector working inside the Ecole Biblique leaked out photo copies of the remaining texts to Professor Robert Eisenman of California State University. The first photocopies of the Dead Sea Scrolls began arriving at Professor Eisenman's office in September of 1989 and the last photocopy arrived in late autumn in 1990. This was indeed theological espionage and intrigue at its best.
Two weeks after receiving the last document Professor Eisenman published a two volume edition containing photocopies of all the scrolls under the title The Facsimile Edition of the Dead Sea Scrolls. At this point the Vatican got involved up to their neck in the politics of trying to suppress the publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls but ultimately failed. Scholars and theologians of integrity soon began the translation of the remaining Dead Sea Scrolls and the cat was out of the bag!
By the time scholars completed the translation work on the Dead Sea Scrolls one very important fact immerged - something that probably no one expected. Nowhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls was the name of Jesus mentioned - shocking indeed. Nor did the popular Christian view of early Christianity find any support in the new translations.
To summarize Professor N.S. Rajaram in his book The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Crisis of Christianity,the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls challenge the two most fundamental beliefs of Christianity: the uniqueness of Jesus Christ and Christianity as the embodiment of the message of Christ. Both these are put in jeopardy by the Dead Sea Scrolls and thus it becomes understandable why the Catholic Church procrastinated in making the Dead Sea Scrolls available to the world...
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/05-07/editorials1564.htm
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Its not necessarily a big deal that Jesus' name isn't mentioned in pre-Christ documents. Its believed that the scrolls were owned by a fanatical /zealous type of group known as the Essenes. Sure, those living at the same time possibly heard about Him, but not suprising that He is not mentioned. While the dates of the owners of the documents go into the first century, the documents are not 1st century documents (though I understand there might be a portion of Mark in them).
They are Jewish people and documents. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls states: "According to carbon dating, textual analysis, and handwriting analysis the documents were written at various times between the middle of the 2nd century BC and the 1st century AD. At least one document has a carbon date range of 21 BC�61 AD".
The Biblical books mentioned in the scrolls are from the OT and many are not Scripture. (Maybe they were for the Essenses, but not the Jews or Christians). The ones with a delay in publication cover only a portion of the scrolls, but they have been released and quite a while ago. It is also believed that the documents were not altered by the actual owners; if they were, this would be the only reason to expect to hear about Christ and Christianity.
The Essenes were a very reclusive and radical group. The scrolls were found in the caves because these people chose to seperate themselves from the lifestyle of the world at the time. If they altered the documents, they would have very little ability to accurately portray Christ at the time.
The Essenes were not Christians and when the article notes the lifestyle of Christians, they are showing their lack of research and show that they have little understanding about Jewish / Christian history of that time period; the lifestyle descriptions they are describing are those of the Essene cult. Its not hard to find out who the Essenes were and their lifestyle.
The autor of the article backs nothing up. The fact that they were Jewish highlights their view that the Messiah never came. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I personally have faith that Jesus was a pure representative/ Son of God, but I also believe that sectarian religious institutions become corrupted and infected with materialistic concerns over time ...
Also, isn't it a fact that many scholars consider John the Baptist, a cousin of Jesus, to have been a member of the Essenes (and a strict vegetarian like most original Christians?...)
The author of this article makes a case that John the Baptist was a member of the Qumran Essenes in Southern Israel, while Jesus was a member of the "Nazarene" Essenes of Mt. Carmel, located in northern Israel...
http://www.essene.org/Essenes_of_Mount_Carmel.htm |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| Well, at least an apparently logical case is made that there has been suppression and/or ignorance (on the part of some vested sectarian interests) of historical evidence gleaned from the Dead Sea Scrolls, relating to the roots of Christianity. |
Wow, you mean people who believe in an imaginary friend or a giant blue baby cherry pick only the evidence that confirms the choice they made in the koolaid they swallowed and actively suppress information that is the polar opposite? GOOD XENU SAY IT AIN'T SO! |
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bluelake
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| Also, isn't it a fact that many scholars consider John the Baptist, a cousin of Jesus, to have been a member of the Essenes (and a strict vegetarian like most original Christians?...) |
The first followers of Christ were fishermen, people who would not have been vegetarians. Fish as a food source was common to the early (and later) Christians. It is found in many places in the Scriptures. Lamb and other meats were very common foods in the Jewish tradition from which Christ came. Did they eat vegetables? Sure they did; so do I and I am not a vegetarian. |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
I personally have faith that Jesus was a pure representative/ Son of God, but I also believe that sectarian religious institutions become corrupted and infected with materialistic concerns over time ...
Also, isn't it a fact that many scholars consider John the Baptist, a cousin of Jesus, to have been a member of the Essenes (and a strict vegetarian like most original Christians?...)
The author of this article makes a case that John the Baptist was a member of the Qumran Essenes in Southern Israel, while Jesus was a member of the "Nazarene" Essenes of Mt. Carmel, located in northern Israel...
http://www.essene.org/Essenes_of_Mount_Carmel.htm |
The Bible and reputable documents of antiquity do not back up such claims. Israel is a small country. It is easy to be 'near' other places.
Please note, Jesus and John the Baptist were Jews and they lived by the law. The non-segregated religous leaders, the Saducees and Pharisees made laws so that people wouldn't beak the Jewish laws  In effect, putting human laws onto the Jewish OT laws. They were fierce opponents of Jesus because He didn't abide by their 'laws'. He was more interested in the heart of the law. The Essenes were more strict than they were. I can't say, but I would imagine that Jesus would have been even more of an outcast amongst them. He associated with common folk, people who aren't segregated, fishermen, tax collecters and others. He ate and associated with those the religous people would have nothing to do with. Prostitues, tax collecters, lepers, the sick and the so called 'unclean'. He regularly met with the priests and went to the Synagogues. His life and ministry was very open, which doesn't fit with the Essenes. (These religous people had different ideas from Essenes). If John were an Essene, he would have been very different to Jesus. He did preach near where the Essenes were, so its possible that he had contact with them, but he had a priest for a father. His lifestyle would have been influenced by those around him. There is not proof he was an Essene, but you are right, some suggest he was, others suggest he was but rejected it. I don't believe this is a common view though.
Think about it, if people behind these articles really believe the 'Biblical facts' that they have presented, they would also acknowledge the Jewishness of Jesus and John and issues of killing and eating animals during feasts and festivals, as well as their (at least Jesus') general lifestyle. (Jews were just not permitted to eat meat and dairy products together). Essenes may not have eaten meat, but I believe Jesus would have. Also, I understand the Essenes were anti-alcohol. Jesus was not. It cannot be argued that God is anti-alcohol (anti drunkeness, yes). Jesus turned water into wine. Maybe He even drank some???? There are people of God, including Paul, who mention alcohol without denouncing it (Paul suggested Timothy drink some for his health problem). The Essenes are different from Judaism and Christianity in a few different ways.
No one can really say in depth any facts about John the Baptists diet. We only know the mention of locusts and wild honey.
These are not Christian ideas and really are fanciful ideas that someone is trying to make fit their ideals, I thought their articles lacked academic integrity. They are not backing anything up in their articles with credible evidence. If they had credible evidence, it would be a well known fact by now. There is difinitely no link to Krishna, but I am not sure if that is something you are suggesting also. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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The integrity of Biblical translations is in dispute among reputable scholars - especially with regard to meat and liquor (and Jesus being the "only way" to reach the Kingdom of God...)
Here's the case against meat: http://www.salagram.net/Veg-UmeanItsinBible.html
... against alcohol: http://www.james-dave.com/alcohol2.html
... and against exclusivity: (The key mistake made is ignoring the extreme present tense denoted by the word erketai ... )
...Christians are very fond of quoting the following teaching of Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me. (John 14.6)" However they never mention what Jesus said only 4 lines above that statement: "In my Father's house are many mansions: (John 14.2)".
So Jesus clearly acknowledged that there are other true religions in the world.
The proper explantion of John 14.6 is made complicated by the FRAUDULENT translation by Christian scholars of John 14.6. The original Greek is, "ego eimi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa; oudeis erketai pros ton patera ei ma di emou" and the correct translation is "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man can PRESENTLY come to the Father, except through me"...
... Christian scholars have dropped the word "presently". The correct explanation of the John 14.6 saying is Jesus was saying that he was the only preacher in Palestine at that time who said that it is necessary to purify the mind and see God and that purification of heart [by accepting the instructions of an empowered pure representative of God] is the ONLY way...
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?pageID=3&discussionID=386551&messages_per_page=4 |
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Xian
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: |
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So many verses taken out of context there. I couldn't possibly sit here and go through each one. But, here is one. The Romans 14 verses clearly state that Paul regards no food unclean in itself and we should be aware of our conduct in this regard, especially in regards to those around us. For example. You are a vegetarian. If I were to be in the presence of a Christian who doesn't eat meet, then I should be cautious about eating meat in front of them. Not that eating meat is wrong, but I would not be doing the right thing by him. Same thing may apply for alcohol and some other things.
Where are they getting their information from? I have no idea how someone with an open mind to their study can come up with such stuff.
If anyone wants an extended article about alcohol from a Christian perspective, email me or check the internet.
A quick search at Biblegateway.com show wine mentioned 238 times in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
I think we should be careful with alcohol for a number of reasons personally, but there is no prohibition on alcohol. Moderation is a key concern in the Bible.
| Quote: |
| [b][color=olive]...Christians are very fond of quoting the following teaching of Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father,but by me. (John 14.6)" However they never mention what Jesus said only 4 lines above that statement: "In my Father's house are many mansions: (John 14.2)". |
Re John 14
How can you say that this is referring to other religions? It has nothing to do with it and is quite the opposite. John ch 14 begins a section where He is telling His disciples that He will be leaving them, but they will see Him later, but He will send the Holy Spirit to them. When He says dwelling places, He is talking about the place that He is going to. The rooms are dwelling places, The Greek is literal, 'dwelling place', implying permanance. More could be said on it, but it is clearly referring to coming to the Father through Christ only.
Jesus says he is the only 'way'. In the first century Christianity was often called, 'The Way'. Christ is the way.
Also, read John 10. Jesus also says that He is the only 'gate' a few times. Again, this is referring to salvation, though He is using an analogy of a Shepherd with His sheep. Inside this gate alone there is safety and supply.
| Quote: |
| The proper explantion of John 14.6 is made complicated by the FRAUDULENT translation by Christian scholars of John 14.6. The original Greek is, "ego eimi ha hodos kai ha alatheia kai ha zoa; oudeis erketai pros ton patera ei ma di emou" and the correct translation is "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man can PRESENTLY come to the Father, except through me"... |
So, who got the right translation? I don't speak 1st Century Greek, so I can't say much, but you are asuming that all the scholars for the last few thousand years have all got it wrong? I don't believe it is right, but even if presently was supposed to be there, it still isn't talking about other ways to come in the future. Revelation and the whole of Scripture is exclusive when discussing salvation.
Why does the Krishna faith try to find similarities with Christianity? I honestly believe that you personally have an openness and / or respect for Christ, but why the bias against the standard doctrines that come with and Him and what is in the Bible? Don't disregard the Bible based upon Christian institutions. I am not a fan of some of them myself.
[quote]
It can be an interesting discussion, but blogs don't really carry any weight for academic discussion.
Again, non-Chrsitains in this article have obviously looked at the Bible but made up their own interpretations of the context and current meaning. It is very poor apologetics from their point of view. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: |
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As a general principle, one shouldn't unnecessarily criticise another's religion. However, I think that so-called Christians have somehow been misled to misinterpret the clear meaning of "Thou Shalt Not Kill", contributing to the sinful slaughter of millions of poor animals daily.
Obviously "not kill" refers to not unnecessarily killing any living being. If there is not enough vegetarian food available to maintain health, then one can kill and eat lower forms of life beginning with fish...
All living beings have souls - they are just more covered over with ignorance in lower life-forms. Jesus never said anything to the contrary, and even recent Popes have acknowledged that animals have souls (and were given the "breath of life" by God...)
When I became vegetarian (for whatever initial reason...) I became aware of Christianity's apparent discrepancy with regard to killing, done - not out of necessity - but because of lust to taste the flesh and blood of slain creatures...
Buddhist philosophy based on non-violence (ahimsa) had some appeal, but it wasn't until I contacted a pure devotee of Krishna, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, that I found a nonsectarian theistic philosophy that combined devotion to God, philosophical depth, and detailed information of what is beyond material existence....
Sectarianism blocks the essential unity of all religion. "Jehovah" or "Christ" refers to the same Supreme Being as the "Allah" or "Vishnu", although different aspects of God are revealed in diferent traditions.
From the perspective of "Krishna conciousness", Christ (or Christos) is derived from the Sanskrit word "Krista" - which is another name for Krishna, the original two-armed form of God...
However, Jesus, as the perfect "son of God" is considered to be "of Christ" and a universal spiritual master - not God Himself. In our eternal spiritual identities, we all have a unique relationship with God...
Out of compassion for fallen souls in the material world, God sends empowered representatives, including His son, Jesus, to preach and engage different types of people in various forms of devotional service.
There is no harm in considering your own personal "savior"/spiritual master to be the best , or "as good as God", or even "more merciful than God"..., but one shouldn't unnecessarily attack other religions, which may be at a lower (or higher) stage of development...
From a nonsectarian, God-conscious point of view, religious conversions are not necessary. Christians should just become better Christians (mainly by stopping unnecessary animal killing), Muslims should become better Muslims (by rooting out fanatical elements and cultivating peacful interfaith relations), and Hindus should become better Hindus (and stop worshipping demigods for material gain...)
(Beyond that, Jews should at least accept Jesus, and Buddhists should practice devotion to Buddha - a special incarnation intended to trick certain atheistic types to unknowingly worship God...)
Hardcore atheists who make no spiritual progress at all run the risk of experiencing a lifetime in a hellish planet (which may seem like an eternity...) or taking birth in envious species - like snakes or spiders... |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| You know Rteacher all of your posts eventually boil down to your preaching about the same three things. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Well, I've made nearly 4000 posts on these forums in a couple years - which would suggest that I have a larger repertoire...
Then again, it might be like creatively combining the three primary colors to create a vast array of different colors (or supernaturally combining the material modes of ignorance, passion, and goodness to create 8,400,000 different species of life...)
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/search.php?search_author=Rteacher |
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