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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Why the hell did Churchill have the right to tour Palestine and create a Jewish state? |
Irrelevant to my comment. But to address it, who cares. What is done is done.
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And if he saw the hatred of Jews there to begin with, how much of an idiot could he have been to have been a part of the creation of Israel?
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Probably a big one.
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I see the problem in fundamentalism. I am a practicing Christian, but I in no way implore the racist hardline tactics you do BJWD.
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islam is a race? You see, this is what you religious people do. I think maybe you learned it from the leftists. Call whoever you disagree with a racist and then back away.
islam is an idea. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no bearded man in the sky. That notion is merely a hangalong from our ongoing evolution. We are still scared of the dark.
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| I actually have a deep respect for all religon. |
I don't respect grown men who have imaginary friends. And I never will.
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| There are extremist Muslims who preach violence and I believe that this group should be focused on. |
That would be all who believe the koran to be the divine word of god.
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| Just as I believe Christians who preach vilonce should be discouraged. Why in American, which is populated by immigrants, or their offspring, should they not be allowed to come to The U.S. Canada, or any other country? |
There is no right to migration. If the values of a group of people are 180degrees opposite of another, accommodation is impossible. There is no reason that we should permit this. We have no obligation.
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| You take your hatred of religon to the same level as the extremists which make you the same; Clouded by a false sense of faith in what you believe is the only way. |
You are a grown man with an imaginary friend. I don't hate you, I pity you. And as far as the muslims, I'm quite sure that a glance around the world will teach a few lessons about what a muslim minority population means.
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Let's not forget that Hitler started by deporting the Jews. It wasn't until all of the Western countries sent them back, that he started to excecute them. So, what did the west do? We sent them to Palestine. Not a very wise move in my opinion. |
Irrelevant. |
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riverboy
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Location: Incheon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Ok. I'll give you the fact that I called you a racist as being wrong. My apology. Would bigot be more acceptable?
The thing is you can't disprove the existence of God any more than I can prove it. I see God as an entity, not as a bearded fella. Nice try though. Feel sorry for me all you want, it doesn not affect me and my spiritual beliefs. Nor am I trying to affect yours. I can respect your faith, it is much stronger than mine. You are certain there is no divine force in the universe. Congratulations. Tell me the same thing in about fifty years when you are close to death. Most people seem to recant around that time.
How can you say things are "irrelevant" when they are not? You can use history when it suits you, but when it doesn't it means nothing. Mass deportation will led to the same atrocities as happened in WW2. I look for prevention, not a final solution. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Also, Wafa Sultan in an interview in Arabic on Al Jazeera (they put her on the air) made it as if the Jews were the paradigm of civilization while Muslims are behind evil. It ignores what Jews in Israel have done in Lebanon, Palestine etc... |
Not to mention what the pro-Israeli lobby in the US is doing to American foreign policy.
BJWD:
You say that your approach to Islam would be "don't import them, don't invade them." I'm curious as to how far you'd be willing to take the second half of your equation.
American support for Israel inflames Muslim public opinion as much as any invasion does. Would you be in favor of saying to the Israelis: "Look guys, you wanna live your dream of being the plucky little democracy in the desert, knock yourself out. Find someone else to foot the bill, though."
Obviously, that wouldn't be the absolute end of Muslim-sponsored terrorism. However, if you are serious in claiming to believe that US intervention in the middle east is part of the problem, I would say you have to start thinking long and hard about America's support for Israel. |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Indiscriminate monitoring of Muslims would actually make us less secure than we are now. There are 1,209 mosques in America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics). Who's going to monitor them? Did you read the 9/11 report? The incompetence of our intelligence agencies is frightening enough when they have a narrow focus. What would they do with the information that comes from 1,209 mosques?
If we make our intelligence agencies monitor every practicing Muslim, how much time are they going to waste on non-threats that could be spent tracking more dangerous people? How much propaganda mileage would every extremist be able to get out of such monitoring? A country that turns any group that isn't inherently criminal into suspects simply for belonging to that group will find themselves wasting a lot of time and money, making the country less safe and embittering a large portion of the population. |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| riverboy wrote: |
| So, what did the west do? We sent them to Palestine. Not a very wise move in my opinion. |
How can U be a christian, but deny the right of the Jews to their homeland????
Jesus was of the Jews.
Just a reminder. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
| riverboy wrote: |
| So, what did the west do? We sent them to Palestine. Not a very wise move in my opinion. |
How can U be a christian, but deny the right of the Jews to their homeland????
Jesus was of the Jews.
Just a reminder. |
You are taking Jesus in the wrong way. Jesus was not a political leader as you understand it. The Jews during Roman times were looking for someone to lead a revolt. Correct? Was Jesus interested in that? No, he was not. Bar Kochba tried that later and failed. Jesus was universal as he reached out to Canaanites and Romans. The Zionist movement is not a universalist movement. The closest to that among Jewry would be the Left movements like the Bundists of the 1930s-1940s. Why associate Jesus with a certain secular, political movement just because he is Jewish it is like saying every Jew supports every Jew. You do know Isaiah criticized many fellow Jews and so did Jesus. We shouldn't use religion against each other in this world. It is not needed. |
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demaratus
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I really don't agree with Dr. Sultan. Her views are as extreme as those of Muslim extremists. The fact that she paints all Muslims with the same picture she witnessed in her own life shows her ignorance. In all religions, there are moderates and extremists.
I don't understand (I know the economic motivations) why the western world continues to meddle in the politics of countries in the middle east. This includes our blind support for Israel. I do not support violence in the name of religion, but I believe that these religious extremists get so much support from the average people not because muslims are violent peple but because these people are fed up with foriegn occupation, and the puppet governments which the west installs in their nations. Ever wonder why these people don't attack countries like Argentina, Norway or Taiwan? Because they mind their own business . If these countries meddled in our domestic, economic and religious politics we would probably rise up as well. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| Also, Wafa Sultan in an interview in Arabic on Al Jazeera (they put her on the air) made it as if the Jews were the paradigm of civilization while Muslims are behind evil. It ignores what Jews in Israel have done in Lebanon, Palestine etc... |
Not to mention what the pro-Israeli lobby in the US is doing to American foreign policy.
BJWD:
You say that your approach to Islam would be "don't import them, don't invade them." I'm curious as to how far you'd be willing to take the second half of your equation.
American support for Israel inflames Muslim public opinion as much as any invasion does. Would you be in favor of saying to the Israelis: "Look guys, you wanna live your dream of being the plucky little democracy in the desert, knock yourself out. Find someone else to foot the bill, though."
Obviously, that wouldn't be the absolute end of Muslim-sponsored terrorism. However, if you are serious in claiming to believe that US intervention in the middle east is part of the problem, I would say you have to start thinking long and hard about America's support for Israel. |
I've never (I think) expressed support for Israel beyond a general feeling that the state of Israel is likely the "best" in the region. I think the American aid to Israel and the Palestinians and the Egyptians and the Saudis and the rest of them distorts the whole situation. Do away with it.
I may be bigoted towards one of the worst ideas in the history of man, but I'm gawddamn consistent. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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BJWD, I really feel sorry for you. Apparently, you've never met and had the opportunity to really get to know any Muslims on a real a personal level. Because if you had, you wouldn't be spewing this much hatred.
I love Muslims, especially Arabs, even if some of them hate me. But none of them have ever and I mean never expressed to me any such hatred. They've only shown me unspeakable love and acceptance. It's true and heartfelt! The hospitality I've received from them (on so many accounts) is by far greater than anything I've ever experienced from any westerner.
If I were ever in real danger, and I had a choice, guess which of these doors I would knock on:
1. the USA Embassy, 2. A Christian church, 3. A Synagogue, 4. a Buddhist temple, 5. the Red Cross, 6. the salvation army, 7. the home of any random Muslim, 8. A Mosque.
Guess which door I�d be least likely to knock on. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Vicissitude wrote: |
BJWD, I really feel sorry for you. Apparently, you've never met and had the opportunity to really get to know any Muslims on a real a personal level. Because if you had, you wouldn't be spewing this much hatred.
I love Muslims, especially Arabs, even if some of them hate me. But none of them have ever and I mean never expressed to me any such hatred. They've only shown me unspeakable love and acceptance. It's true and heartfelt! The hospitality I've received from them (on so many accounts) is by far greater than anything I've ever experienced from any westerner.
If I were ever in real danger, and I had a choice, guess which of these doors I would knock on:
1. the USA Embassy, 2. A Christian church, 3. A Synagogue, 4. a Buddhist temple, 5. the Red Cross, 6. the salvation army, 7. the home of any random Muslim, 8. A Mosque.
Guess which door I�d be least likely to knock on. |
Saying that Islam is the worst idea in history is unempirical. It is allowing a person's emotions to get the better of them. I think of one believes in being scientific when it comes to psychology, economics, or any other endeavour one should not only look for facts with the eyes that will only confirm our thoughts. That's not going to approach objectivity.
I could easily put the Quran side by side with the Old Testament and Talmud and state they are similar in tone and content in many cases.
The difference is the Jewish people are not led by so many people who follow their books literally like so many Muslims. They are still, however, influenced by narrow thinking if you believe the likes of some secular Jews like the late Dr. Israel Shahak who was a non-believer. Wafa Sultan is not the equivalent of Dr. Israel Shahak for the Muslims, because
Wafa Sultan only criticizes Muslims. Shahak didn't have much care for
Islam or Judaism. That is being more objective. The same applies to the
Gallic Leftist Maxime Rodinson who was of Jewish ancestry as well.
One can also see ideas that one might very repugnant in the Hindu Veddas (book of life) with the bloody scenes and the barbarism contained in the book. The Hindus also fostered the horrible cast system.
What we are seeing in this thread is ignoring the idea that one can apply progressive views regarding any religion, and that one should simply look at what the works literally say and what some fanatics do and condemn them all. That entails looking for facts that only supports one's conclusions, and it is not scientific. I used to be very guilty of this when I was very young. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Saying that Islam is the worst idea in history is unempirical. It is allowing a person's emotions to get the better of them. |
I didn't say "the worst" I said "one of the worst". How would you like us to go about quantifying how horrible it is? Body bags?
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I could easily put the Quran side by side with the Old Testament and Talmud and state they are similar in tone and content in many cases. |
That is because mohamad was an illiterate pedophile nomad who pretended god spoke to him. He just repeated the parts of the NT/OT that he remembered and added in some editorial content that he figured would make his flock more extremely loyal to his lie.
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What we are seeing in this thread is ignoring the idea that one can apply progressive views regarding any religion, and that one should simply look at what the works literally say and what some fanatics do and condemn them all. |
This is, I'm terribly sorry, douchebaggery at his very worst. Hundreds of millions of muslims believe the koran is "supreme" (their word) and every word true. It is not my "issue" or hang-up that I believe them at their word.
What is exceedingly pathetic about these weak-kneed cult-like responses is that people like you would have the world interpret their religion in an entirely different way than they themselves interpret their religion. You do this to cloud the truth. They believe scary stuff. They believe in lots and lots of scary stuff. You don't want people to know that as it might lead to intolerance. I'm very intolerant of intolerance.
For an example of this, googlenews "islam" to see how people talk about the idea. Then googlenews "muslim" to see what the people who follow the idea actually behave like. There is a 180degrees difference between the two.
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| That entails looking for facts that only supports one's conclusions, and it is not scientific. |
What facts? Everywhere in the islamic world barbarism, sexism and violence is life. Very few places are the exception to this. This is their "normal". We had better make damn sure that their normal doesn't become our normal again. We barely pushed down the Christians.
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| I used to be very guilty of this when I was very young. |
You still may be. The naivety is astounding. |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| demaratus wrote: |
I really don't agree with Dr. Sultan. Her views are as extreme as those of Muslim extremists. The fact that she paints all Muslims with the same picture she witnessed in her own life shows her ignorance. In all religions, there are moderates and extremists.
I don't understand (I know the economic motivations) why the western world continues to meddle in the politics of countries in the middle east. This includes our blind support for Israel. I do not support violence in the name of religion, but I believe that these religious extremists get so much support from the average people not because muslims are violent peple but because these people are fed up with foriegn occupation, and the puppet governments which the west installs in their nations. Ever wonder why these people don't attack countries like Argentina, Norway or Taiwan? Because they mind their own business . If these countries meddled in our domestic, economic and religious politics we would probably rise up as well. |
While I agree with not installing or propping up unrepresentative governments, the extremists would not leave us alone if we just minded our own business. If they can find a rationalization for killing Muslims (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,156963,00.html) and civilians (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,16852650-1702,00.html), why couldn't they find one to justify killing people from any of those countries? Anywhere terrorists are is a place of concern for the world, and the anyone who thinks they will leave us alone if we leave them alone is mistaken. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
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| Saying that Islam is the worst idea in history is unempirical. It is allowing a person's emotions to get the better of them. |
I didn't say "the worst" I said "one of the worst". How would you like us to go about quantifying how horrible it is? Body bags?
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I could easily put the Quran side by side with the Old Testament and Talmud and state they are similar in tone and content in many cases. |
That is because mohamad was an illiterate pedophile nomad who pretended god spoke to him. He just repeated the parts of the NT/OT that he remembered and added in some editorial content that he figured would make his flock more extremely loyal to his lie.
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[Yes, and Joshua (Yohoshua) was an ethnic cleanser (see Deuterotemy) when he ethnic cleansed the inhabitants of Jericho, just as you can argue that Mohammed as a pedophile for marrying the daughter of his major ally, Abu Baker A-Siddiq. You can argue that Mohammed borrowed and argue that Jesus (Yeshua) borrwed from the Old Testament, and you can argue that Buddha borrowed from Hinduism. We can also go back and say that the Hebrews borrowed from the Canaanites and Hebrews is, in large measure, a Kinaanu (Canaanite) language. Where is that in your analysis? What of Moshe killing so many people as well?
What we are seeing in this thread is ignoring the idea that one can apply progressive views regarding any religion, and that one should simply look at what the works literally say and what some fanatics do and condemn them all. |
This is, I'm terribly sorry, douchebaggery at his very worst. Hundreds of millions of muslims believe the koran is "supreme" (their word) and every word true. It is not my "issue" or hang-up that I believe them at their word.
[I don't think you are reading correctly. I didn't say Muslims, in large measure, don't too often read the religion literally, but many do not.
You are reading Islam the way the fanatics do and want us to see Al Qaeda's interepretation. Saying you believe every word is true still leaves room for ambiguity if you are aware of the idea that language can be very complex. You are not allowing for that. You also ignore the fact that Muslims in the Middle Ages were often led by Sufis who are far more progressive than Muslims in Saudi Arabia. How is that empirical? Ibn Taymiyah was placed in general for being too radical in the Middle Ages. That should say something.
What is exceedingly pathetic about these weak-kneed cult-like responses is that people like you would have the world interpret their religion in an entirely different way than they themselves interpret their religion. You do this to cloud the truth. They believe scary stuff. They believe in lots and lots of scary stuff. You don't want people to know that as it might lead to intolerance. I'm very intolerant of intolerance.
[It is not weak-kneed. People who believe they must sometimes open fire don't believe that everyone who declares themselves a Muslims are simply wolves in sheeps' clothing. I know that plenty of religious Muslims
believe in executing apostacy, stoning, lashing people 50 times for pre-marital sex, entering a bathroom with their left foot first before their right, that is a sin to use their left hand etc.... I don't have a problem discussing that and mentioning that, but it is a far cry from saying every person who claims to be a Muslim who prays is Osama Bin Ladin. One of my great friends is a practicing Muslim who was born in America. He is a police officer. He is no fanatic at all. Why should an honourable police officer who has never committed a crime be watched just because of his ethnicity or religion? That is simply bigotry and you are deflecting from that by calling us naive.
For an example of this, googlenews "islam" to see how people talk about the idea. Then googlenews "muslim" to see what the people who follow the idea actually behave like. There is a 180degrees difference between the two.
[I know plenty about Islam. I don't need an education about it.
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| That entails looking for facts that only supports one's conclusions, and it is not scientific. |
What facts? Everywhere in the islamic world barbarism, sexism and violence is life. Very few places are the exception to this. This is their "normal". We had better make damn sure that their normal doesn't become our normal again. We barely pushed down the Christians.
[You could argue there is probably more violence against women in America than in Syria. You don't have proof that Syria for example has more violence vis-a-vis their women. Violence is life? I challenge you to prove that Amman, Jordan is more violent than Dallas, Philadelphia, Toronto. I have been to Amman, Jordan and could have walked anywhere in the city at any time in the morning. I have walked in parts of Texas and had to get out of certain areas as fast as my legs could take me. There is barbarism all over the world. The West has plenty of it and has contributed to way too much of it.
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| I used to be very guilty of this when I was very young. |
You still may be. The naivety is astounding. |
I was saying that your analysis is way too reductionist, and my thinking was too reductionist. I see the dangers you point out, but your thoughts are not productive. You are not objective. Dr. Sultan paints only the Islamic fanatics as a danger, has no mention of Jewish and Christian fanatics in the West and Israel. This is just relativism, then, not objectivity or empiricism. Relativism involves trying to impose your ideology. How does that make you different than the fanatics, then?
You don't have to believe in a diety called Ba'al, God, Allah to be fanatical in your views... How are you open-minded, enlightened, and objective and empirical. I mean why should we listen to you if you don't fit that criteria. Seriously. Enlighten as to why since you post about this ad nauseum. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| demaratus wrote: |
I really don't agree with Dr. Sultan. Her views are as extreme as those of Muslim extremists.
I don't understand (I know the economic motivations) why the western world continues to meddle in the politics of countries in the middle east. This includes our blind support for Israel. I do not support violence in the name of religion, but I believe that these religious extremists get so much support from the average people not because muslims are violent peple but because these people are fed up with foriegn occupation, and the puppet governments which the west installs in their nations. Ever wonder why these people don't attack countries like Argentina, Norway or Taiwan? Because they mind their own business . If these countries meddled in our domestic, economic and religious politics we would probably rise up as well. |
She advocates watching Muslims closely, Muslim extremists advocate stoning homosexuals, killing infidels (simply for being infidels) and instituting facist, theocratic states. If you think those standpoints are equally extreme, your are clearly quite mentally challenged, even though I know it is very fashionable to say that those who oppose Islamic violence are just the other side of the same coin.
Do Muslims behead school girls in Indonesia because they are tired of foreign occupation? Is it because of foreign occupation that Theo Van Gogh was brutally murdered, and was it foreign occupation that caused a man to massacre clubbers in Bali?
The US presence in the Middle East is surely a recruiting tool for Jihadis. But do not be so naive to think that if the US pulled out of the area, Muslims would embrace peace, democracy and liberalism. The ideology of infidel hatred and Jihad laid out in the Koran and by the example of Mohammed will not go away, it will be simply be transferred to any of the other myriad conflicts around the world that inevitably involve Muslims and some other group of Kuffar. |
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demaratus
Joined: 13 Apr 2005
Location: Searching for a heart of gold, and I'm gettin' old
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| Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| demaratus wrote: |
I really don't agree with Dr. Sultan. Her views are as extreme as those of Muslim extremists.
I don't understand (I know the economic motivations) why the western world continues to meddle in the politics of countries in the middle east. This includes our blind support for Israel. I do not support violence in the name of religion, but I believe that these religious extremists get so much support from the average people not because muslims are violent peple but because these people are fed up with foriegn occupation, and the puppet governments which the west installs in their nations. Ever wonder why these people don't attack countries like Argentina, Norway or Taiwan? Because they mind their own business . If these countries meddled in our domestic, economic and religious politics we would probably rise up as well. |
She advocates watching Muslims closely, Muslim extremists advocate stoning homosexuals, killing infidels (simply for being infidels) and instituting facist, theocratic states. If you think those standpoints are equally extreme, your are clearly quite mentally challenged, even though I know it is very fashionable to say that those who oppose Islamic violence are just the other side of the same coin.
Do Muslims behead school girls in Indonesia because they are tired of foreign occupation? Is it because of foreign occupation that Theo Van Gogh was brutally murdered, and was it foreign occupation that caused a man to massacre clubbers in Bali?
The US presence in the Middle East is surely a recruiting tool for Jihadis. But do not be so naive to think that if the US pulled out of the area, Muslims would embrace peace, democracy and liberalism. The ideology of infidel hatred and Jihad laid out in the Koran and by the example of Mohammed will not go away, it will be simply be transferred to any of the other myriad conflicts around the world that inevitably involve Muslims and some other group of Kuffar. |
I was not trying to be fashionable nor do I condone muslim violence. But I do believe that painting a huge group with the same idiot-brush is ignorant. She advocates more than just watching, and her statements suggest far more than monitoring. I agree we should monitor dangerous people especially in our own borders, but were would this monitoring stop? And who decides who should be watched? Muslim extremists should be watched, as should fundamentalst Christians (tell me that they don't preach hate please?), Anarchists and any group that puts a doctrine of hate or violence. Apperently you seem to think this is exclusive to Islam. Her viewpoints are not only extreme but are also somewhat ignorant. Don't try to whitewash her bigoted views by insulting me.
Muslims beheading schoolgirls in Indonesia? Where they average muslims doing this or extremists? Obviously the latter. Are all Christians evil because some extremists bomb abortion clinics? Nope, How do you think there Arab/Muslim world see's the wests undying support for Israel? Do you think they see it as merely political? Nope, they think of it as us supporting their enemy, and given the situation do you think they are right to think this way? Put your self in their shoes.
Did I say that all Muslims would embrace peace, democracy and liberalism if America withdrew from the middle east? No, so don't put words in my mouth. What I was saying was that the average Muslim probably supports the fundamentalist because he is the only one resisting (or taking a hard line against) the western presence in his region. i don't think Christians are evil (I am one) nor do I think Americans are evil but lets make a paralell to the west:
The American public ovewhelmingly voted Bush into a second term because of his firm stance on terrorism, not because of his advancement in social programs (as apposed to his record funding of "Christian initiatives") or because of economic development (horrible). How is America's overwhelming show of support for a leader who advocates agressive war in foriegn nations (for imiginary wmd's), unlawful imprisonment and torture of pows (against the Geneva convention) and large scale reduction of freedoms in his own country all while failing to adress social, and economic issues in his own country any better?
Have you read the Koran? You do understand that Jihad is not a pillar of Islam, right? That Christians are considered "brothers of the book" and are largely given respect by Muslims in the Koran. Have you read the bible or later important Christian writings? Our writings are just as bad if not worse, but I don't see you painting all Christians as evil. |
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