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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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 Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Angry Italians Urge Expulsion Of Immigrants |
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Italians Urge Expulsion Of Immigrants
By FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer
Sun Nov 4, 5:56 PM ET
ROME - Opposition leader Silvio Berlusconi urged Italy to close its borders to Romanian workers and a conservative ally called Sunday for the expulsion of tens of thousands of immigrants amid public outrage over a wave of violent crimes blamed on foreigners.
Pope Benedict XVI added his voice to the debate over the balance between citizen safety and treatment of foreigners, reminding authorities that immigrants have both obligations and rights.
The pope weighed in as lawmakers prepared to debate the government's response to recent crime, including fast-track expulsions of Romanians and other EU citizens deemed dangerous and bulldozing shantytowns housing immigrants.
"In Rome alone, 20,000 expulsions should be carried out right away," right-wing leader Gianfranco Fini, a key Berlusconi ally, said on a TV talk show Sunday.
MORE ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071104/ap_on_re_eu/italy_immigrants_tension
Italian naval officer Giovanni Gumiero (top L) follows the coffin of his wife Giovanna Reggiani, who was killed in an attack, during her funeral in Rome November 3, 2007.
Italy's centre-left government, long accused by critics of being soft on immigration, has pushed through a decree allowing police to expel European Union citizens believed to be a danger to society.
The decree was signed by Italy's president on November 1, 2007 and followed a spate of violent crimes, many blamed on immigrants from new EU member Romania -- including an attack on a naval officer's wife whose plight has gripped Italians. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| They nurtured these criminals themselves. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| They nurtured these criminals themselves. |
NO.. once romania joined the EU they came in droves!!!
Italy has always been a target for illegals! its the gateway to europe..
i agree though get rid of them all!! |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Why the rush to judgement?
Minorities have been scapegoated in the past.
Maybe HITLER was right in targeting those murdering, thieving gypsies, huh?
Are they as a group really REALLY repsonsible for this recent wave of violent crime?
The world wants to know. What exactly has been "proven".
Are a entire people to be condemned, perhaps even for crimes they have NOT even committed?
How is this just?
Historically these reptilian misdeeds have largely been the MAFIA's exclusive thing, professionally organized crime families 
Last edited by igotthisguitar on Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| They nurtured these criminals themselves |
Ah yes, the voice of the idiotic European left. Immigrants can never be blamed for their own transgressions, that would be racist, or xenophobic, or Islamophobic, or whatever other tired matra the idiots of the PC left are chanting that particular week.
How exactly did Italy 'nurture' these Romanian gypsies? I suppose that because they were not given jobs, free accomodation and a 5 course Italian banquet, they can claim themselves to be an 'oppressed minority'. This man, who robbed and then violently murdered a middle aged woman, was 'nurtured' by the Italians was he? |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess the Romaniajs are just following the lead of the Italians. Ever been to Italy? Its a crime bonanza. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| i find it a little ironic that a country laments foreign criminals while allowing the mafia to operate with basically a free hand. It's like Japan complaining about foreign drug dealers when it's the Yakuza that is resposnible for setting up all the trafficing. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| They nurtured these criminals themselves |
Ah yes, the voice of the idiotic European left. Immigrants can never be blamed for their own transgressions, that would be racist, or xenophobic, or Islamophobic, or whatever other tired matra the idiots of the PC left are chanting that particular week. |
The only thing true about your first statement is that I am European. The rest is just your assumption.
Immigrants are people looking for a better future somewhere else, and yes i do acknowledge that they contain the same percentage of criminals as any population has.
Second, due to passive racism in Europe, immigrants have a hard time getting a job, therefore they are not only socially but also economically excluded.
Don't forget that I lived in Europe, a lot of my friends and family are passive racists, and that I know quite a lot of immigrants. Therefore my arguments are based on what I know.
If a man is not allowed to properly provide food and shelter (and a sense of worth), he will acquire it thru other means. The criminal world in Italy has recruited a vast amount of immigrants into their ranks, and used them to do the dirty work.
Therefore my statement, Italy has nurtured it's own criminals.
| bigverne wrote: |
How exactly did Italy 'nurture' these Romanian gypsies? I suppose that because they were not given jobs, free accomodation and a 5 course Italian banquet, they can claim themselves to be an 'oppressed minority'. This man, who robbed and then violently murdered a middle aged woman, was 'nurtured' by the Italians was he? |
it is not about "giving" jobs, its about giving at least the opportunity to find one. People who find a job will take care of their own accommodations, the same with food.
I stay with my opinion that a vast amount of the crimes done by immigrants are "nurtured" due to passive racism and the political unwillingness to actually find a solution to the problem.
I believe in a fundamental right that a man (woman) can make choices to improve his life. If that means moving to another country, let him do so. I do not believe in borders or nationalities.
They are institutionalized and kept for convenience sake.
That said; no, I am sorry, I don't have a better solution to this problem. |
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Tony_Balony
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| They nurtured these criminals themselves |
Ah yes, the voice of the idiotic European left. Immigrants can never be blamed for their own transgressions, that would be racist, or xenophobic, or Islamophobic, or whatever other tired matra the idiots of the PC left are chanting that particular week. |
The only thing true about your first statement is that I am European. The rest is just your assumption.
Immigrants are people looking for a better future somewhere else, and yes i do acknowledge that they contain the same percentage of criminals as any population has.
Second, due to passive racism in Europe, immigrants have a hard time getting a job, therefore they are not only socially but also economically excluded.
Don't forget that I lived in Europe, a lot of my friends and family are passive racists, and that I know quite a lot of immigrants. Therefore my arguments are based on what I know.
If a man is not allowed to properly provide food and shelter (and a sense of worth), he will acquire it thru other means. The criminal world in Italy has recruited a vast amount of immigrants into their ranks, and used them to do the dirty work.
Therefore my statement, Italy has nurtured it's own criminals.
| bigverne wrote: |
How exactly did Italy 'nurture' these Romanian gypsies? I suppose that because they were not given jobs, free accomodation and a 5 course Italian banquet, they can claim themselves to be an 'oppressed minority'. This man, who robbed and then violently murdered a middle aged woman, was 'nurtured' by the Italians was he? |
it is not about "giving" jobs, its about giving at least the opportunity to find one. People who find a job will take care of their own accommodations, the same with food.
I stay with my opinion that a vast amount of the crimes done by immigrants are "nurtured" due to passive racism and the political unwillingness to actually find a solution to the problem.
I believe in a fundamental right that a man (woman) can make choices to improve his life. If that means moving to another country, let him do so. I do not believe in borders or nationalities.
They are institutionalized and kept for convenience sake.
That said; no, I am sorry, I don't have a better solution to this problem. |
Hi
Note to everyone - Juregen and I disagree completely that is 180 degrees on his above post. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| Ever been to Italy? Its a crime bonanza. |
thanks to the immigrants!! |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The only thing true about your first statement is that I am European. The rest is just your assumption. |
Based on the fact that you instantly blamed the Italians for 'nurturing' this problem and what you later state about 'not believing in borders', you are instantly recognisable as part of the European PC left, and the extreme wing at that. The fact is that these Romanian migrants are a relatively recent phenomenon, which goes against your nonsense that they have been 'nurtured' by years of oppression and 'passive racism', a term which is conveniently not explained.
| Quote: |
| Immigrants are people looking for a better future somewhere else, and yes i do acknowledge that they contain the same percentage of criminals as any population has. |
This is another PC assumption. All immigrant groups are not the same. Some contain less criminals than the host population, others contain more. In the case of Romanians it would appear that they are disproportionately involved in crime, including violent crime, murder and rape.
| Quote: |
| Second, due to passive racism in Europe, immigrants have a hard time getting a job, therefore they are not only socially but also economically excluded. |
A blanket statement and complete nonsense. Low skilled, poorly educated migrants not fluent in the native tongue may find it hard to get a job, others who have the skills and right attitude do. Why is Italy not experiencing a massive Polish, or Chinese crime wave? Perhaps because most people from those groups work hard and don't expect the Italian people to look after them.
And, what exactly is 'passive racism'?
| Quote: |
Don't forget that I lived in Europe, a lot of my friends and family are passive racists, and that I know quite a lot of immigrants. Therefore my arguments are based on what I know.
If a man is not allowed to properly provide food and shelter (and a sense of worth), he will acquire it thru other means. The criminal world in Italy has recruited a vast amount of immigrants into their ranks, and used them to do the dirty work.
Therefore my statement, Italy has nurtured it's own criminals. |
'Not allowed'? In what way are migrants not allowed to work? Millions of people from Eastern Europe have come to the West, and the majority of them have gotten jobs and are working hard. You should not engage in such shameful excuse making for the minority of criminals and gangsters who engage in crime.
| Quote: |
| I stay with my opinion that a vast amount of the crimes done by immigrants are "nurtured" due to passive racism and the political unwillingness to actually find a solution to the problem. |
Once again, you completely ignore the differing outcomes of differing ethnic groups. Indians and Chinese in the UK now earn more than the average white person. What terrible racism! If certain immigrant groups do not do so well, why don't you look into why that might be the case, rather than trot out tired screams of racism, or instead 'passive racism'.
| Quote: |
| I believe in a fundamental right that a man (woman) can make choices to improve his life. If that means moving to another country, let him do so. I do not believe in borders or nationalities. |
Only those on the extreme left advocate such nonsense. Whether you believe in borders or not is irrelevant, they are still a very real manifestation of the international system, usually only opposed by people who have smoked too much weed and idealistic clowns. Luckily the Italian people are not quite so deluded as yourself. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| i find it a little ironic that a country laments foreign criminals while allowing the mafia to operate with basically a free hand. It's like Japan complaining about foreign drug dealers when it's the Yakuza that is resposnible for setting up all the trafficing. |
"Allowing"? You think the Italian folks love the mafia? Is this your way of saying bring in more criminals because the Italians have this home grown criminal element? The way to solve it is to bring in more criminals? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
| Ever been to Italy? Its a crime bonanza. |
thanks to the immigrants!! |
Isn't the Mafia Italian?
You could almost say that cold-blooded gangsters are one of Italy's most famous exports.Romanians are hardly angels but Italy is a homogenous and xenophobic country. I say bring them all in. if they were muslims I might have reservations-but they're europeans, same as the Italians.
After being a foreigner in Korea, I tend to see the immigrants side these days. 
Last edited by Julius on Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| i find it a little ironic that a country laments foreign criminals while allowing the mafia to operate with basically a free hand. It's like Japan complaining about foreign drug dealers when it's the Yakuza that is resposnible for setting up all the trafficing. |
"Allowing"? You think the Italian folks love the mafia? Is this your way of saying bring in more criminals because the Italians have this home grown criminal element? The way to solve it is to bring in more criminals? |
Why yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. I am saying that I find it ironic. I don't believe I offered a solution, nor do I believe I said that it was a good idea to import more immigrants into Italy because they already have the mafia.
And when I say "allow", you have to admit that organised crime is bigger and more established in some countries than others.
Ever been to Japan? Yakuza basically do their business with impunity. Police do absolutely nothing, the government does even less. The only time you hear of an arrest is if one Yak kills another or an innocent bystander. Other than that, it's the kid glove treatment 24/7. You ALWAYS hear of the dirty chinese and morally corrupt westerners but no one seems to acknowledge that these criminal elements couldn't even exist in Japan without the blessing and organisation of the Yakuza.
"Hi I'm Joe Smith. I've decided that I want to run criminal organisation in Japan." How long do you think that would last?
So, when Japanese talk about dirty foreigners committing crime in Japan, I try not to laugh directly in their faces. I aslo find it ironic. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The only thing true about your first statement is that I am European. The rest is just your assumption. |
Based on the fact that you instantly blamed the Italians for 'nurturing' this problem and what you later state about 'not believing in borders', you are instantly recognisable as part of the European PC left, and the extreme wing at that. The fact is that these Romanian migrants are a relatively recent phenomenon, which goes against your nonsense that they have been 'nurtured' by years of oppression and 'passive racism', a term which is conveniently not explained. |
Nurturing is the correct word in this instance, have you ever been to Italy, do you know any Italians, or let me even say, Europeans?
If you are poor and you need to eat, and you don't have any financial means, you steal. End of line. People who divide other people into "races" or "nationalities" are passive racists, now I have given you my definition. And yes, i am quite sure that a lot of people fall under this definition.
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Immigrants are people looking for a better future somewhere else, and yes i do acknowledge that they contain the same percentage of criminals as any population has. |
This is another PC assumption. All immigrant groups are not the same. Some contain less criminals than the host population, others contain more. In the case of Romanians it would appear that they are disproportionately involved in crime, including violent crime, murder and rape. |
And so should criminals be punished under equal Law
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Second, due to passive racism in Europe, immigrants have a hard time getting a job, therefore they are not only socially but also economically excluded. |
A blanket statement and complete nonsense. Low skilled, poorly educated migrants not fluent in the native tongue may find it hard to get a job, others who have the skills and right attitude do. Why is Italy not experiencing a massive Polish, or Chinese crime wave? Perhaps because most people from those groups work hard and don't expect the Italian people to look after them.
And, what exactly is 'passive racism'? |
I gave you a simple definition above, passive refers to the fact that they are not actively racists, but nevertheless show a tendency to direct their behavior unconsciously into racist behavior. People are not even aware that they do this.
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
Don't forget that I lived in Europe, a lot of my friends and family are passive racists, and that I know quite a lot of immigrants. Therefore my arguments are based on what I know.
If a man is not allowed to properly provide food and shelter (and a sense of worth), he will acquire it thru other means. The criminal world in Italy has recruited a vast amount of immigrants into their ranks, and used them to do the dirty work.
Therefore my statement, Italy has nurtured it's own criminals. |
'Not allowed'? In what way are migrants not allowed to work? Millions of people from Eastern Europe have come to the West, and the majority of them have gotten jobs and are working hard. You should not engage in such shameful excuse making for the minority of criminals and gangsters who engage in crime. |
Eastern Europeans are not saints you know. Belgium had a polish crime wave (stealing cars and consumer electronics, even some jewelry shops),
You have absolutely no idea what goes around in Europe, not a single thread.
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I stay with my opinion that a vast amount of the crimes done by immigrants are "nurtured" due to passive racism and the political unwillingness to actually find a solution to the problem. |
Once again, you completely ignore the differing outcomes of differing ethnic groups. Indians and Chinese in the UK now earn more than the average white person. What terrible racism! If certain immigrant groups do not do so well, why don't you look into why that might be the case, rather than trot out tired screams of racism, or instead 'passive racism'. |
The Key point in your statement is not mentioned: "Education". Indians and Chinese are strong believers in Education and will sacrifice huge amount of personal wealth to see their kids thru school. Cultures who put less stress on education tend to drop out of the education system all together. Now you are mixing up certain things here.
There are First Generation immigrants and Second Generation Immigrants (At the moment not a third one or at least they have "integrated")
The difficulties of the First Generation are of finding a stable job and keeping their families protected. The first generation is actually seldom the real problem. They still follow their own culture and try to "blend in".
The Second Generation, basically born in the country, have a very hard time reconciling 2 complete different cultures. And since they still resemble the first generation, they are often given exactly the same chances as their parents, almost none. It is this generation that fired up Paris and Brussels a couple of years ago.
So what is often seen is that it is not the first Generation that has problems of "integration" its the second one. They grow up with expecting fair and equal treatment, but they have absolutely no chance (yes they don't, do not argue this point, you have no idea, and don't compare with Chinese, Europeans have more respect for Asians then for Africans and Muslims) to improve their lives. All their school buddies get nice jobs with good money, and they have to clean up the streets, even though they have the same level of education.
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I believe in a fundamental right that a man (woman) can make choices to improve his life. If that means moving to another country, let him do so. I do not believe in borders or nationalities. |
Only those on the extreme left advocate such nonsense. Whether you believe in borders or not is irrelevant, they are still a very real manifestation of the international system, usually only opposed by people who have smoked too much weed and idealistic clowns. Luckily the Italian people are not quite so deluded as yourself. |
Italy is a one of the poorest country in Europe riddled with crime AS IT IS. I still stand with my firm believe that they nurtured these criminals themselves.
Do you know how hard it must be to start a crime organization in a country that is already riddled with crime? You know nothing about Italy, and therefore it would be better for you to first go there and live there for a couple of months, before you sprout your opinion on my "Leftish idealism".
At least I still respect each and every individual. Whether they come from a well to do country or a poor agriculture backdrop.
You did not choose where you were born, but you do choose where you will live. That my friend they call Freedom of Choice. And I firmly believe in that Freedom. |
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