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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: Idealism vs Vicious Lust for Power |
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When it gets right down to it, and you set aside your �hope� for an Obama victory this fall, do you set McCain�s chances of winning at 100%, 99% or 98%?
I�m asking because the debate in the Republican camp is whether McCain is conservative enough, but there is not a whisper in either the Clinton or the Obama camp about who is the better, more pure liberal. As far as I can tell, no one is supporting either Clinton or Obama because of her/his ideas, but are supporting one because she is a woman or the other because he is black. No one seems to care what either will do for the country�and there isn�t a whit of difference between their ideas. There are even people who, in recent memory, have said a) if Clinton is nominated, I�m signing up for the Libertarian party and never voting Democratic again and b) if Clinton is nominated, I�m voting for Huckabee the theocrat.
It looks to me as if the Democrats are still in love with the idea expressed so well by Dylan: �There is no success like failure, and failure is no success at all�. It�s the noble lost cause syndrome. Yeah, the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are nice ideals and we�d like �em, but we�re not going to play politics to get �em.
My prediction: The Democrats are going to let the Republicans play the fear card�fear of Moslems, fear of blacks, fear of women. They are going to let the Republicans vote for torture and claim to be the true patriots and get away with it. Again. The Democrats are going to sit in the corner and pout while the Republicans say they believe in small government while they invade our private lives and our private decisions, all in the name of their version of Christian theology. The Republicans are going to wave the flag, thump the Bible and make empty promises they have no intention of fulfilling and the Democrats are going to gaze at their navels and ask what went wrong this time. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Who oversees the electronic "voting" technologies?
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: |
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In his appearance on the Colbert Report, George McGovern more-or-less characterized himself as realistic idealist.
He mentioned Jefferson and Lincoln as perhaps the two most idealistic Presidents, and he noted that one was a Democrat and one a Republican.
America's core ideals are essentially expressed in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights, and Lincoln tried his best to practically implement them.
Sometimes wars are necessary - like the Civil War and World War II - but McGovern cited the Viet Nam war and the current Iraq fiasco as unnecessary wars not justifiable in terms of American ideals.
Some draw parallels between his 1972 run as a peace candidate and Obama's current campaign. He said that rival candidates within his own party seriously hurt his chances against Nixon by "ganging up on him" in the California primary, prolonging the process, draining resources, and promoting disunity.
Although he endorsed Hillary early on as a potentially strong President, McGovern said that the more he has come to know of Obama, the more he has been impressed by his campaign.
It does appear that the Clintons and their henchmen (like Carville) will probably weaken Obama (should he prevail - which is still likely...)
Maybe Obama's best hope is that all the late-night comedians gang-up on Hillary. Colbert saw an opportunity right away and has started "implicating" her in the Eliot Spitzer prostitution ring scandal...
http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/index.jhtml
(I expect that Jon Stewart will pick up on that angle tomorrow ...) |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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stillnotking
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Idealism vs Vicious Lust for Power |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| When it gets right down to it, and you set aside your �hope� for an Obama victory this fall, do you set McCain�s chances of winning at 100%, 99% or 98%? |
Um, what? This is the best year for a Democratic candidate since at least 1988. And yeah, I know Dukakis blew that one, but he was a terrible candidate. Obama is ten times the campaigner Dukakis was.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I�m asking because the debate in the Republican camp is whether McCain is conservative enough, but there is not a whisper in either the Clinton or the Obama camp about who is the better, more pure liberal. As far as I can tell, no one is supporting either Clinton or Obama because of her/his ideas, but are supporting one because she is a woman or the other because he is black. No one seems to care what either will do for the country�and there isn�t a whit of difference between their ideas. There are even people who, in recent memory, have said a) if Clinton is nominated, I�m signing up for the Libertarian party and never voting Democratic again and b) if Clinton is nominated, I�m voting for Huckabee the theocrat.
It looks to me as if the Democrats are still in love with the idea expressed so well by Dylan: �There is no success like failure, and failure is no success at all�. It�s the noble lost cause syndrome. Yeah, the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are nice ideals and we�d like �em, but we�re not going to play politics to get �em.
My prediction: The Democrats are going to let the Republicans play the fear card�fear of Moslems, fear of blacks, fear of women. They are going to let the Republicans vote for torture and claim to be the true patriots and get away with it. Again. The Democrats are going to sit in the corner and pout while the Republicans say they believe in small government while they invade our private lives and our private decisions, all in the name of their version of Christian theology. The Republicans are going to wave the flag, thump the Bible and make empty promises they have no intention of fulfilling and the Democrats are going to gaze at their navels and ask what went wrong this time. |
My support of Obama is tied explicitly to ideals. Clinton represents the worst instincts of the mainstream Democratic Party -- she voted for AUMF, voted for the Patriot Act, didn't bother to show up for the recent telecom immunity vote, etc., etc. Where you and I differ is that I'm not at all sure the Democrats like Clinton, who govern and run as Republican Lite, are doing so out of fear. That is no explanation at all for the actions of the Dem party leadership, especially in the last two years when the public has clearly been agitating for more oversight of Bush excesses. A better explanation is simply that they agree with Bush, that they think the Iraq war and the domestic surveillance state are good policies, whatever tepid objections they raise at press conferences to pacify their base.
Obama offers a hope of a new kind of Party, a Party that actually gives a damn about the Constitution, the rule of law, and a sane foreign policy. Whether he can deliver, or whether he's just another panderer, I don't know. What I do know for certain is that Clinton won't. If anything, I suspect she might abuse the office even more thoroughly than Bush has.
So, I think you are confused as to the motives of those who say they'll leave the party if it nominates Clinton. We're not bitter navel-gazers or devotees of black identity politics. We're simply on the verge of concluding that the Democratic Party has zero institutional commitment to the things that really matter to us, and that there is so little functional difference between voting for a typical Republican and voting for a typical Democrat that we might as well say "a pox on both your houses", and pursue alternative means of political activity. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Idealism vs Vicious Lust for Power |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
It looks to me as if the Democrats are still in love with the idea expressed so well by Dylan: �There is no success like failure, and failure is no success at all�. It�s the noble lost cause syndrome. Yeah, the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are nice ideals and we�d like �em, but we�re not going to play politics to get �em.
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Yes, exactly. These are the people who hate the Clintons. And, well, Republicans. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| but there is not a whisper in either the Clinton or the Obama camp about who is the better, more pure liberal. As far as I can tell, no one is supporting either Clinton or Obama because of her/his ideas, but are supporting one because she is a woman or the other because he is black. No one seems to care... |
Your thinking on Democrats' unassailable virtues and Republicans' vicious lust for power betrays an unduly reductionist understanding of American politics. It is indeed infantile.
I and others here will vote Republican this election. (Some of us voted Democrat for the last three or four elections and are voting Republican for the first time. But let us set that aside for the moment.) None of us wave the flag, thump the Bible, or blah, blah, blah. How do you account for Republicans like us in such a simplistic, slogan-like worldview?
Further, the Democrats do not play politics and are not especially playing on Idealism? How do you see Obama and his message for "hope?" His citing Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Holy Kennedy Legacy?
Getting back to those of us who used to vote Democrat but will likely vote Republican from now on, my own reason is this: I can no longer stand to hear the left's puerile, extremist discourse on heroes and villains in American politics and world affairs. Start with Michael Moore and Moveon.org. Some in the Republican camp understand adult-like realist politics. Others, of course, do not. But at least I have something in common with that one faction in the Republican Party. And this is more than I can say about any hand-wringing, obsessed-with-Republican-villains (real and imaginary), Democrats. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher,
The Bush administration has been a perfect example of the GOP lust for power. McCain has to distance himself from it to attract Democrats, but so far he seems to be pitching to the base. |
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