|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
 |
|
This post is addressed to anyone but Bobster, who has proved himself to be an unreasonable and cantankerous fool who misappropriates people's words and misrepresents their position. I once had a good opinion of him, even if I thought he was a little zealous at times. Now I realise that he one of the most unreasonable posters on this board. It is pointless to discuss this with him any further.
This whole silly conversation came about because I defended Bramble against some of Bobster's silly attacks.
Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF.
I piped up saying I did not believe this, as I knew that Bobster regularly misrepresented people's beliefs, and twisted their words, and I knew enough of Bramble's views to conclude that more likely she was quite against violence against any animal, including human animals. So I challenged Bobster about this, not accepting his claims about Bramble.
Bramble indeed explained that (to her knowledge) the ALF do not support violent action. {Probably Bobster has confused them with more militant groups.}
In a nutshell, during the ensuing conversation between Bobster and I, Bobster (using the flimsiest of logic) then concluded that as I was defending Bramble against his utter nonsense, I was therefore a supporter of the ALF and therefore also a supporter of their alledged (by him) violent methods.
I do not actively support the ALF and know little of them. I know enough about them however to support their goals. I have already explained in other posts/threads that I do not support violent methods by animal activists. First because I do not wish to see humans harmed and secondly because these methods seem likely to backfire anyway.
Therefore, do not believe anything the Bobster says about me. Anything he says is likely to be either a mischievous misrepresentation or outright lie. He does not accurately report our previous conversations, and he uses the faultiest of logic to extrapolate my alleged views and beliefs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Well said, BB. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF. |
Wrong. I said she supports terrorist organizations, and it is true. I've corrected you at least twice on this, so you cannot claim to be mistaken, only, perhaps, obtuse.
But you are not committing an accident, and you are not stupid - you are doing exactly what you accuse ME of, which is misrepresenting statements by others.
| Quote: |
| I piped up saying I did not believe this, as I knew that Bobster regularly misrepresented people's beliefs, and twisted their words, and I knew enough of Bramble's views to conclude that more likely she was quite against violence against any animal, including human animals. |
You "know" THIS, but you also claim to know little about the actions of groups for which you have expressed approval. Just what is the process whereat you arrive at the things you "know" and, conversely, "know little of" ... whatever process it is you use, it seems a very convenient one.
| Quote: |
| So I challenged Bobster about this, not accepting his claims about Bramble. |
Bramble has had many opportunities to clearly state that she does not support the violence committed by ALF, that she vehemently opposes those actions as any self-consistent vegetarian and humane peron ought to do easily. She has never taken this opportunity, and at most she has simply and only said that there is debate and discussion among the AR community.
What is there to debate and discuss about setting off bombs, sending letters cointaining razor blades and making threatenting phone calls to family members of lab workers n the middle of the night?
| Quote: |
| Bramble indeed explained that (to her knowledge) the ALF do not support violent action. {Probably Bobster has confused them with more militant groups.} |
It is you who are confused and you have said several times now that you don't know what you are talking about. I provided links and quotations, over half of them from ALF's own website, because you seemed to need the education. It wasn't difficult. Everything I gave you was from the first 5 links after googling <Animal Liberation Front Criminal Activities>
ALF, and it's sibling group, ELF ARE militant groups. What do YOU call people who set off bombs and then run and hide? Admirable citizens worthy of emulation?
| Quote: |
| I do not actively support the ALF and know little of them. I know enough about them however to support their goals. I have already explained in other posts/threads that I do not support violent methods by animal activists. First because I do not wish to see humans harmed and secondly because these methods seem likely to backfire anyway. |
You forgot the part about respecting the democratic process and the importance of affecting social change through persuasion, legal disputation and reasoined debate, and thatr nonviolent action is better simply because that's how civilization works best.
Oh, you DIDN'T forget?
Come to think of it, you have yet to denounce the criminal and violent activities of these terror groups, also. Instead, despite the copious evidence I show you, you simply deny that they are violent.
Why not clear the air on this subject once and for all? You and Bramble both can tell us all clearly and in so many words that you believe people who commit violent crimes should go to jail in order to protect the rest of society from the harm they cause. Not sure why that's so hard for you to say out loud ...
If Al Queda was wrong to crash airplanes, is Rod Coronado a hero for exploding medical research labs? Their methods are the same, the difference is only one of degree.
| Quote: |
| He does not accurately report our previous conversations, and he uses the faultiest of logic to extrapolate my alleged views and beliefs. |
You have said in this very post that you support the goals that ALF. We know that their goal is direct violent action in order to change political and social behavior - their own "Credo," which I quoted above, with link, says exactly this.
So, where am I being inaccurate? You've given no example, yet you do call me a liar ... or am I treading into realms of which you "know little of"?
You have spoken in support of criminal terrorist organizations - you do so here, right in front of us - and then you call me a liar. It's all very amusing, really.
Next time, do the research instead of bragging about your ignorance, even after I showed you where and how to find out. Know what you are talking about instead of merely accusing people lying who did no such thing.
And after you DO figure out exactly what it is you don't know, I hope you have a very nice day.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| A mischievous bump |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D.D.
Joined: 29 May 2008
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:50 pm Post subject: rude |
|
|
| Many young people are rude while travelling because they drink a lot. Have you ever seen Aussies living in Whistler or backpacking Brits in Australia. I am Canadian and I have lived abroad for many years. My fellow country people do embarrass me sometimes. Canadians do have a smugness about them. Americans can be cool but many of them seam to suffer from arrogance. America is just another country and is not better or worse than others. It's just different. Canada is also not the best country and many people there are passive aggresive. I am sorry for some of the actions of the Canadians here but give them a break. Most of them are just out of university and this is the first place they have ever travelled to. Some of them are just wankers. Every country has cool people and every country has wankers. It's too bad that the wankers usually outnumber the cool people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: rude |
|
|
| D.D. wrote: |
| Canada is also not the best country and many people there are passive aggresive. |
Sure "seams" that way, doesn't it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF.
|
I find Bobster's accusation to be plausible if Bramble is the incarnation of Red Dog. Red Dog was all for blowing up cars to make a political point.
If Bramble isn't RD, forget I said anything and try to get the Bobster vs Big Bird love fest going again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Bobster accused Bramble of supporting terrorist acts by the ALF.
|
I find Bobster's accusation to be plausible if Bramble is the incarnation of Red Dog. Red Dog was all for blowing up cars to make a political point.
If Bramble isn't RD, forget I said anything and try to get the Bobster vs Big Bird love fest going again. |
Yeah, she used to be red dog. And Bramble more recently authored this thread in order to assert that arson is not a serious crime and that burning houses to the ground in the dead of night constitutes a viable form of political dialogue in democratic societies.
Pretty sure that's what she's saying. That thread's about the ELF, but a lot of the same activists can be found in both groups.
In case Big_Bird drops by and makes some noises about having sympathy with their goals but not their methods, please be aware: for these groups, the goals and methods are inseparable and as I quoted on the previous page, in their own website they compare themselves to Al Queda. I'll republish here, if you don't mind.
From a website purporting to represent ALF :
The ALF credo
The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) carries out direct action against animal abuse in the form of rescuing animals and causing financial loss to animal exploiters, usually through the damage and destruction of property.
Their aims are not simply to save the cute puppies and adorable bunny rabbits - as they say themselves above, their aim is to use "direct action" (i.e., violence) in pursuit of these desires. If you want to help animals but you don't like how ALF/ELF operate, there are other groups like the Humane Society and the WWF that work within the law and do not get their rocks off by setting fire to things.
Elsewhere, on the same site :
The U.S. hailed Osama bin Laden and his comrades as freedom fighters in the 1980s, while many government officials denounced Nelson Mandela as a terrorist. The Western world reviled the 9/11 attacks as a paradigm of evil, but Al Qaeda and other enemies of the U.S. upheld it as a legitimate strike in their jihad, while decrying U.S. bombings of Afghanistan as terrorism. The U.S. corporate-state complex censures the ALF as terrorists, while many activists champion them as freedom fighters.
I believe a few pages back BB said that ALF has 'eff all to do with Al Queda. They would beg to differ, it seems.
And, BB, if it's true yhou didn't know anything about these groups when you expressed sympathy for them, fine. But now you DO know. You are free to withdraw that sumpathy in the light of new information, and no one would blame you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why do you persist with your blatant lies and misrepresentation? Did you even bother reading this part of the article?
| Quote: |
It seems that the meaning of the term terrorism becomes clear in inverse relation to the frequency with which it is used. This is true in part because �terrorism� is inherently a complex concept, but more so because it is a subjective, highly loaded, emotionally and politically charged term whose meaning is relative to one�s political ideology and agenda, and even one�s culture. Since no individual, group, or government wants to accept the negative consequences of the term, �terrorism� is always what someone else does.
There is no consensus definition of terrorism. One recent survey of definitions by leading researchers found 109 different definitions. Beset by political differences, the United Nations General Assembly was unable to pass a resolution denouncing terrorism until 1985. |
The authors are scholars, not members of the ALF or ELF. ALF and ELF activists are anonymous. And it's an article about defining terrorism. It's on the ALF's Web site because it's a helpful resource for people who genuinely want to understand these issues.
The point of the article is that people like you and your national leaders throw the term around irresponsibly. The authors aren't defending Al Qaida or suggesting it's connected in any way with the ALF.
Stop spreading misinformation and learn to read.
Last edited by Bramble on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bramble wrote: |
They aren't defending Al Qaida or identifying it as the same thing as the ALF. It's on the ALF's Web site because it's a helpful resource for people who genuinely want to understand these issues.
|
Yet they promote this comparison by including on their own website. Their names ("Liberation Front") are taken from terrorist groups of the past. They see themselves as involved in violent struggle, as in a war.
It's not civil disobedience. It is violence. Threats, intiimidation, fear, in order to force people and govts to bend to their will outside of democratic processes. You can support that if you like, go ahead. But don't try to change what it is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The ALF guidelines (from http://www.animalliberationpressoffice.org/faq.htm):
| Quote: |
To liberate animals from places of abuse, i.e., laboratories, factory farms, fur farms, etc., and place them in good homes where they may live out their natural lives, free from suffering.
To inflict economic damage to those who profit from the misery and exploitation of animals.
To reveal the horror and atrocities committed against animals behind locked doors, by performing direct actions and liberations.
To take all necessary precautions against harming any animal, human and non-human.
Any group of people who are vegetarians or vegans and who carry out actions according to these guidelines have the right to regard themselves as part of the Animal Liberation Front. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
1. Arson IS a serious crime and it is an act of violence. It is a violent act whether the target is an SUV, or a new housing development or a medical research facility.
2. A spray paint can can be a weapon if it used to instill fear, for instance to say "Stop what you are doing - or else."
3. A telephone can be a weapon if it likewise is used for extortion, or to create terror in the hearts and minds of people who are family members of people working for companies that ALF/ELF have targeted with threatening phone calls in the middle of the night.
4. An envelope can be a weapon if it contains rusted razor blades and is mailed to individuals who are likewise targeted by these terrorists.
5. A metal spike can be a weapon if it nailed into a tree in such a way that a chain swaw will explode and very likely maim the person hoilding it.
Each of these examples are actual events perpetrated by the members of the groups we are talking about. I could probably find worse, if I looked around a little more.
These are not acts of vandalism. We can argue all day about whether to call it terrorism - it's clear tgo me that any refusal to do so stems from your approval of the goals rather than the ethicality of the means, but never mind that - it's more than a disagreement over nomenclature, because what is clear is that you, Bramble, approve of these acts of violence.
Big_Bird:
| Quote: |
| And read it again, Bobster. Bramble does not support bombing. |
Yeah, right.
According to Bramble, though, arson is not a serious crime. And I'm guessing the 4 other items I put on the list above are just fraternity pranks.
Right?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Elsewhere in the website Bramble posted above:
March 13, 2008:
| Quote: |
At the start of last week, in Irvine, CA, a van owned by UCLA went up in flames. For all of those affected you have the UCLA primate vivsection program to blame.
It is unacceptable for us to see, hear, and know what is going on in our animal labs without taking action. Every time we pass someone like Arthur in the hallways and have to witness his stomach churning grin or watch Joaquin double checking the door locks on his little red Mercedes we have to choke back a crippling amount of disgust and hatred. |
In the above, names of individuals are mentioned as well as details of their personal habits - these are people who are being targeted and harassed and whose personal welfare is being threatened.
June 1:
| Quote: |
At night on the day indicated the Frente de Liberaci�n Animal visited the home of a speciesist, owner of a bird breeding facility and cockfighting fan. This bastard does not know that there are people who have plans for him, who along with his house and his business are going down, to avenge the animal prisoners in the cages. This time his house was damaged with very colorful paint and his floor was painted with the mark of the ALF.
The next time we will not be so polite. |
May 13
| Quote: |
Action: Incindiary device (sic) left under Staples delivery truck.
Action: Small explosive device inserted into exhaust system of additional Staples delivery truck. (If it hasn't been activated yet, it will as soon as it gets hot enough.) |
April 24
| Quote: |
| An incindiary device was left under a Staples delivery truck in Garden Grove, CA. |
February 21
| Quote: |
Edyth London, you and your work are deplorable. You are given paychecks in exchange for addicting primates, the closest kin that the human species knows, to numerous sickeningly addicting drugs like crystal meth. For forcing these innocent and sensitive beings to suffer through a type of hell that they would never encounter if it wasn't for your deranged science you deserve to know true justice.
This is why on February 3rd 2008 we left an incendiary device at your house at 1246 Shadybrook in Beverly Hills. Edyth, the fire that night was exactly ther size we wanted it to be. It was just a little outreach because we want to see you make the sound ethical choice to stop vivisecting primates. We know what we are doing and fires can be much larger. |
This is just in the past few months, from the website Bramble has shown us.
But ... "Bramble does not support bombing." Right, Big_Bird?
The Bobster lies and gives misinformation, eh, Bramble? All I'm doing is cutting and pasting from web sources YOU provided.
Last edited by The Bobster on Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Terrorist organization. Final answer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bramble
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Location: National treasures need homes
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I suppose posting a link to eslcafe.com somewhere implies agreement with everything you say, and everything every other poster here says, right?
Possibly, some of those actions shouldn't have been claimed as ALF actions. It all depends on how careful the activists were to prevent any injury to any living being. I wasn't there, so it's not my place to judge.
But that doesn't matter to you, does it? Spray-painting a nasty message on a wall counts as terrorism if it hurts someone's feelings, according to you. By that twisted logic, Dave's ESL Cafe is a terrorist site.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
