|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
dirty_scraps83
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
doc_ido
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
|
 Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:58 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Even if military action is seriously considered, I'm not sure removing Mugabe and arming MDC supporters would be the wisest of moves (Iraq analogy, if the article author was drawing parallels: what would have happened if the US had removed Hussein and then armed anti-Bathists?).
My feeling is that an African-led UN peacekeeping force would be able to do the most long-term good, starting with free elections. This has (and hasn't) worked in the past, but it seems the best compromise between doing nothing (which wouldn't help Zimbabweans) and an invasion (which would kill a lot of people and generate a lot of bad feeling towards whoever did the invading).
What I think will actually happen is a lot of bluster in the Western press, a few sanctions and various buck-passing until Mugabe dies (or is taken out in a coup once conditions deteriorate even further and neighbouring countries close their orders to refugees) - he is 84, in a country with a life expectancy of 37. An invasion seems unlikely - Zimbabwe doesn't have any oil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
An invasion here could work. Presumably Mugabe's support is very thin and the interventionists would be relieving the opposition from active violence and intimidation. But the invasion would have to relinquish responsibility to the opposition leaders pretty soon after.
Analogies to Iraq don't feel too helpful to me here. Likewise, China isn't going to do anything as long as they can continue to supply the next regime. Remember, China has penetration all over East Africa, it isn't just the oppressive states. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Its a job for the UN. Because they have the non-partisan authority. But they are utterly useless as always, declaring "We could never invade a sovereign state". What? Even if there is an illegal brutal regime in place? can someone please tell me what good the UN is? At least they should initiate a peacekeeping force to organise free elections and supervise a transfer of power.
invasion by Britain would be viewed as a return to colonialism. if it happened, ironically, they would be fighting the same war that they thwarted the Rhodesian security forces from doing 30 years ago.
So...I feel..ultimately..that nothing will be done and Zimbabwe will continue its return to a barren wasteland peopled by a few brutal animals surviving on a barter system.
The last option would be for MDC to find a sponsor willing to arm and train rebels that would also need accomodating in neighbouring countries like Botswana. You'd be looking at a prolonged war all over again. Nobody wants that or is prepared to go through that again, especially when at the moment it appears other options have not been properly tried yet.
There is a low-level under-the-radar genocide happening already, by stealth. ie..Mugabe or rather Zanu-PF generals have cut off food aid to those most in need, and so on. An all out Rwanda-style rampage would probably force britain to act, but if mugabe just keeps starving his people slowly he will get away with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| just kill Mugage |
A few years ago I would have agreed with that but now its become obvious that its his entire party structure and generals that are not only the ones really in charge, but intent on keeping their power as long as possible.
ie kill/arrest Mugarbage, and Chiwenga/ Chihuri simply takes his place. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
...and don't forget to plant the Union Jack in Pretoria as you blow through there encountering no resistance at all.
God save the Queen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Join Me
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| There would have to be a lot of oil in that country for "Bushy" to show any interest in adopting a few million starving black people. I don't see any invasion in the future. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Join Me wrote: |
| There would have to be a lot of oil in that country for "Bushy" to show any interest in adopting a few million starving black people. I don't see any invasion in the future. |
Britain has already adopted between half a million and 1 million Zimbabwean refugees
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2008-03/2008-03-27-voa36.cfm
While South Africa has been forced to adopt up to 3 million
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/08/safric13923.htm
And lesser numbers have fled to other neighbouring countries as well as any number of other countries worldwide.
So Britain and S.Africa have the most reason to stage an armed intervention.
As Soon as the ANC gets rid of Mugabes old lifetime friend Mbeki and replaces him with Zuma....then the stage will be set. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dirty_scraps83
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Could take the back door...
Exiles want NZ Army training
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=231&objectid=10518778&ref=rss
| Quote: |
"My suggestion to Zimbabweans in the diaspora is that we should unite and seek practical approaches.
" Talk and talk and talk over talks will not get us anywhere. Mugabe and his junta will continue inflicting violence upon those who beg to err because they know we are harmless and powerless.
"My suggestion is: let's approach our host governments for military training so that we can go back and fight for freedom.
"If I could get training, I would not take another minute to think about it. It has to be done. If that costs my life, then let it be." |
need more than just the four guys from Nz though  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dirty_scraps83 wrote: |
Could take the back door...
Exiles want NZ Army training
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=231&objectid=10518778&ref=rss
| Quote: |
"My suggestion to Zimbabweans in the diaspora is that we should unite and seek practical approaches.
" Talk and talk and talk over talks will not get us anywhere. Mugabe and his junta will continue inflicting violence upon those who beg to err because they know we are harmless and powerless.
"My suggestion is: let's approach our host governments for military training so that we can go back and fight for freedom.
"If I could get training, I would not take another minute to think about it. It has to be done. If that costs my life, then let it be." |
need more than just the four guys from Nz though |
In the 60's & 70's countries were lining up to train and arm Mugabes inurgents. China, Russia, Cuba were falling over eachother to send in Mugabes marxists to overthrow smith. In addition, western governments went all out to isolate and break Rhodesia with sanctions.
Now its 30 years on and they are suffering far worse than under smith, suddenly nobody wants to lift a finger. Fighting wars of liberation against the white man is much more trendy than helping destitute blacks topple their oppressors it would seem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Robert Mugabe hailed a hero at African Union summit |
| Quote: |
Robert Mugabe was hailed a "hero" by Africa's longest-serving head of state as he joined his fellow leaders at an African Union summit.
The 84-year-old flew to the meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh only hours after being sworn in for his sixth presidential term following a one-candidate election run-off widely decried as at best a sham, at worst a travesty of democracy.
He entered the conference hall accompanied by the leaders of Egypt, Tanzania - the AU chairman - and Uganda, and his enemies' hopes that he would be disowned by his peers were quickly dashed.
"He was elected, he took an oath, and he is here with us, so he is President and we cannot ask him more," said Omar Bongo, President of Gabon since 1967. "He conducted elections and I think he won."
But, instead of heeding that message from the outside world, Mr Bongo said that African leaders were able to decide for themselves. "We have even received Mugabe as a hero," he told reporters. "We understand the attacks (by the international community) but this is not the way they should react. What they�ve done is, in our opinion, a little clumsy, and we think they could have consulted us (the AU) first."
But there was no sign that Mr Mugabe's fellow leaders would break rank to question Mr Mugabe's legitimacy or ratchet up the pressure on him to negotiate some sort of political accommodation with Morgan Tsvangirai, the Zimbabwean opposition leader.
The only senior African politician to attack today Mr Mugabe was Raila Odinga, the Kenyan Prime Minister, who called for Zimbabwe to be suspdended from the AU until the group could organise free and fair elections in the country. But Mr Odinga was not at the Sharm el-Sheikh summit, where Kenya was represented by his rival, Presidient Kibaki.
It was not clear whether Mr Mugabe would address the conference himself. Seen by many on the continent as a liberation hero, he is accustomed to standing ovations at regional meetings but will be wary given the criticism of him after Mr Tsvangirai pulled out of last Friday's vote.
The opposition leader withdrew because of campaign of violent and intimidation violence in which he said nearly 90 of his followers were killed.
|
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4242895.ece
Can the AU be depended upon to deal appropriately with him? The UN? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bryan
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| just kill Mugage |
Leaders are a representation of their culture. You kill Mugabe and there will be thousands of others with the same backward ideas to replace him. This is Africa after all, the continent with the most barbaric and primitive people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| nautilus wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| just kill Mugage |
A few years ago I would have agreed with that but now its become obvious that its his entire party structure and generals that are not only the ones really in charge, but intent on keeping their power as long as possible.
ie kill/arrest Mugarbage, and Chiwenga/ Chihuri simply takes his place. |
Yep, I agree with you here. Take Mugabe out, one of his key "aides" will just step into the vacuum. Either that, or there will be a power struggle for that top spot and the country will descend into further chaos. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bucheon bum wrote: |
Yep, I agree with you here. Take Mugabe out, one of his key "aides" will just step into the vacuum. Either that, or there will be a power struggle for that top spot and the country will descend into further chaos. |
Yeah the Zanu-PF have slowly spread their domination of everything in the country to the point where the machinery of their rule is unassailable.
Its been a case of a gradual descent for Zimbabwe, so subtle over 30 years that there was no critical point where enough of the people were motivated enough to do anything about it. A bit like imperceptibly turning up the heat to boil a rabbit or whatever. Thats how Mugabe has gotten away with slowly exerting a stranglehold. 30 years later, half the country has trickled out and emigrated, food shortages have increased, everyone except for mugabes army is starving, weaponless and powerless, and they are scr*wed.
They took farms, property and businesses off whites in the same way: started with say 10 farms expropriated. Nobody cared enought to stick their neck out. Then another 30 old age pensioners invaded by mobs of squatters. years later there are only a few whites hanging on to what they spent decades building up.
How do you eat an elephant? piece by piece.
The democratic world wants the African union to step up and put their back yard in order (rather than be accused of colonialism by intervening).. But of Africa's leaders, 13 took power by force, 10 have been in power for more than 20 years, and 2 inherited the presidency from their fathers. How can you expect such a pack of gangsters to do anything more than give Mugabe a pat on the back? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
After todays AU summit I feel that Mugabe will take his last option to survive: he will turn Zimbabwe into the next Burma/ North korea.
With AU proposing a transitional govt be drawn up before free elections take place, mugabe is in a corner.
This summarizes it well.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/34029
"Inside his country, however, Mugabe's rule is increasingly taking on the outlines of the worst dictatorships�another Burma, or even North Korea. On a rare journey into Zimbabwe, NEWSWEEK found a nation dominated by fear and the ever-present secret police, where a suspicious population is gradually turning on itself." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
