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creationism in the US presidential debate. . .
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tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:11 am Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

I think you need a history lesson! The dark ages as what you speak of was in the west around 1500 years ago...

1500 is between 1000 and 3000, isn't it?
It was when I went to school.

Quote:

why dont you go back and read what I wrote and try to see what I am saying.. I never said the west either!

You didn't say any particular place.
So that gives us two reasons why Underwater Bob's objection was perfectly legitimate.

And if religion is so wonderful, what caused the Dark Ages if it wasn't the church?
And if it is good to be loving and spiritual, and if pious worship makes people loving and spiritual, then why was your response to Underwater Bob so hateful?

uberscheisse

Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:01 am Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

Underwaterbob wrote:

Science applies to everyone, like it or not. Spirituality is rarely the same between two separate people, no matter how much any one faith claims to be the absolute truth.

If spirituality was taught in school, if the government gave money for funding into spirituality then it would apply to everyone because then it would be clear how absolute it is.

show me a western government that doesn't give tax-free status to churches.

ED209

Joined: 17 Oct 2006

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:24 am Post subject:

And if evolution is a religion then government owes science a huge tax rebate.

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:34 am Post subject:

tomato wrote:

And if religion is so wonderful, what caused the Dark Ages if it wasn't the church?
And if it is good to be loving and spiritual, and if pious worship makes people loving and spiritual, then why was your response to Underwater Bob so hateful?

my response was not hateful! just becuase I dont agree with him doesnt mean its hateful!

to answer your question about what started the wars! simple..
GREED! MONEY! mans desire for control! the same things that start wars today! a good way to rally the people in those days was to use the name of GOD! kinda like SAYING there were WMD'S!

you have some serious hate on for religion I suggest you take it up with your therapist!

uberscheisse wrote:

show me a western government that doesn't give tax-free status to churches.

wow you must of went to a cool school, at my school
Buddhism , yoga, zen, hinduism, taoism, meditation were not taught in class after science and religious studies.
I was never taught how to meditate either..

tax breaks is hardly funding!

Quote:

ED209 wrote:

And if evolution is a religion then government owes science a huge tax rebate.

science gets BILLIONS! for research ! BILLIONS!!
spiritualism doesn't..

Last edited by itaewonguy on Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

uberscheisse

Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:44 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

uberscheisse wrote:

show me a western government that doesn't give tax-free status to churches.

i'm not sure which point you're trying to argue against here. i never mentioned any of those religions.

but think of the constant income organized religion gets in the form of tithes, collection plate income, fundraising and that annoying "please give me money or god's liable to strike me down on air, please tune in for proof next week." and then consider that it is not subject to the same shit we are.

that's a lot of money. if you're canadian, sometimes it's almost 50% of your earnings. a researcher still pays tax. churches get a pass.

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

you have some serious hate on for religion I suggest you take it up your therapist!

You are buying a pig in a poke.
A therapist might agree with every word I say.
Psychiatrists are the least religious of all medical specialists:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/health/18insi.html

Psychologist Albert Ellis wrote a book entitled Case Against Religion.

Sigmund Freud wrote that religion was "an illusion and it derives its strength from the fact that it falls in with our instinctual desires."

Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:00 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

Underwaterbob wrote:

Your post made little sense. I'm only going to deal with this:

itaewonguy wrote:

There was less negativity around them in those times [1000-3000 years ago] so it was possible to achieve enlightenment... philosophy shows us this...

You claim philosophy shows us people were less negative than they are today during what historians often refer to as "The Dark Ages". I think I need to see some evidence.

I think you need a history lesson! The dark ages as what you speak of was in the west around 1500 years ago... why dont you go back and read what I wrote and try to see what I am saying.. I never said the west either!

You might want to check your dates. According to most historians the dark ages just ended almost exactly 1000 years ago.

Please enlighten us then. Where were you talking about?

itaewonguy wrote:

Negativity in the sense of main stream media polluting the mind.
More and more information being sent through the brain that needs to be filtered... in those days it was a much simplier time.

Yeah, and your average life expectancy was something like 30 years, and that's probably being generous. You'd likely be dead. I'd likely be dead.

itaewonguy wrote:

Maybe that�s why the greatest philosophers, gurus,
yogis, Buddhists , scholars etc spent all day meditating mastering their craft!

Because there was no mainstream media? I'd like to think they were doing it for nobler reasons.

itaewonguy wrote:

Example..
someone like Luis Armstrong the GREATEST horn player ever! Jazz musician etc... You think he become that good by doing nothing?
NO he practiced and played 6-7 hours a day everyday for YEARS!!
Devotion, passion! And without doubt!
A spiritualist/philosopher etc in those days did just that! Spent his life devoted to the mind! They know things and have experienced things which we cannot comprehend! but becuase its the unknown people just discard it. is a natural human reaction..

I'm not sure how you "discard the unknown" exactly since you don't know it in the first place, but reason aside, if I catch your drift you're saying less people are spiritual because of some natural tendency to deny spirituality. Why then, as you've informed us before, do the religious outnumber those who aren't? And if it is a natural tendency then why didn't the human race do it hundreds if not thousands of years ago?

itaewonguy wrote:

We listen to the monk or bb king and say to ourselves! What are they saying?? We don�t know because we have not elevated to that level! BUT It sounds rich though! And we can�t deny that!

Their ability to express themselves amazes me. Their feelings show in their music, and while we might not perfectly understand, the fact we can relate to them is indicative of their genius.

itaewonguy wrote:

I�m not saying the individual people in those days did not see any negativity of course they did! That�s what made them great, that�s what gave them balance... you are just picking on my words now!

Call the waaaahhhmbulance. Please tell me how I'm "picking on your words" in the post quoted at the top of this.

itaewonguy wrote:

Listen dude! If you want to live your life pessimistic and not want to even try anything before you discard it, go for it, it�s your life and you have that right!

Where did you get that from? I just asked you for some proof of your claim that people were less negative 1000-3000 years ago. I think you're projecting.

itaewonguy wrote:

There is nothing or no one in this world that will open your mind to try and see something. It�s ok to be xenophobic hey I�m sure coming to Korea for the first time was a huge event for you but you over came it...
The unknown doesn�t have to be freighting, embrace it, take your time and read little day by day, and then you might see how some of the greatest minds of the past knew more than you when it came to spiritual and/or psychophysical practices. It has survived this long because it�s a proven fact! IT WORKS!!!

Are you trying to convert me by making baseless accusations or just trying to get a rise out of me? Pretty pathetic either way.

itaewonguy wrote:

Unfortunately for you it�s impossible for you to ever see it. As you doubt it!
You don't understand the philosophy and that�s ok chit I don�t understand most of it either... but I embrace it where as you discard it as rubbish.

Please tell me where I discarded whatever philosophy you're talking about as rubbish. You're seriously not making any sense at all.

itaewonguy wrote:

And it�s normal for someone to discard it and call BS when one doesn�t understand something it�s a human reaction for saving face...
Instead of approaching everything in life as negative why don�t you research it a little and then ask some questions. Hey I don�t know all to know about evolution but I asked questions. And what did I find? I found that even evolutionists don�t even know either..

You asked evolution to explain the origin of life and the universe. Do you ask your doctor to tell you the meaning of life? Get some perspective.

itaewonguy wrote:

question...
What do you say about all the great spiritualist past and present?

There were/are a hell of a lot of them.

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject:

Quote:

why response was not hateful! just because I dont agree with him doesnt mean its hateful!

You probably don't see yourself as we see you, then.
I'm not talking about disagreement in general, I'm talking about disrespectful disagreement.

Quote:

I think you need a history lesson!

A Transactional Analyst might regard that as a crossed response. One could call it a Child/Child response, since you are implying an insult.
Or a Parent/Child response, since you are offering personal advice which was not solicited.
Likewise for your advice that I consult a therapist.
Remember, when a person disagrees with you, that person considers himself right and considers you wrong, just as you consider yourself right and the other person wrong.
Underwater Bob is not likely to go back to history class to correct the problem because he doesn't agree that there is a problem to correct.
I am not likely to consult a therapist to correct the problem because I don't agree that there is a problem to correct.

Quote:

Listen dude!

That's not hateful?

Quote:

There is nothing or no one in this world that will open your mind to try and see something.

Are you implying that Evolutionists are oblivious to the Creationist position? I doubt if Underwater Bob agrees to this, and I certainly don't. I grew up hearing the Creationist position, and he probably did too.

An Transactional Analyst might designate an ad hominem attack as a Child/Child response to an Adult/Adult stimulus.

Quote:

It�s ok to be xenophobic hey I�m sure coming to Korea for the first time was a huge event for you but you over came it...

Another Parent/Child response. Underwater Bob never said he was xenophobic.

Quote:

Unfortunately for you it�s impossible for you to ever see it.

Another insult, plain and simple.

Quote:

You don't understand the philosophy . . .

Another insult.

Quote:

Instead of approaching everything in life as negative why don�t you research it a little and then ask some questions.

Another Parent/Child response.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to talk about Evolution and Creationism.
If anyone wants to talk about Evolutionists and Creationists, maybe we can start another thread.

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject:

Underwaterbob wrote:

Where were you talking about?

I meant in the past all over the world the Far East, the west anywhere where certain scholars lived... but as I said before you look at things as a pessimist.

Quote:

Yeah, and your average life expectancy was something like 30 years, and that's probably being generous. You'd likely be dead. I'd likely be dead.

30??? Your dates are way off, you want evidence I suggest you look up 10 of the greatest minds you can think of from the past 3000 years...
And IM sure all of them lived to be over 60!!! Some even way into their 80's...
Again you are thinking dark ages! Poor poverty stricken London, with the plague! Or people rapping and pillaging! Again your mind is in the dark with that pessimistic view you have on life!

Quote:

Because there was no mainstream media? I'd like to think they were doing it for nobler reasons.

Really?? What do you honestly think?

Quote:

you�re saying less people are spiritual because of some natural tendency to deny spirituality. Why then, as you've informed us before, do the religious outnumber those who aren't? And if it is a natural tendency then why didn't the human race do it hundreds if not thousands of years ago?

NO NO, that�s not what I am saying...there are plenty of religious people in the world, as we know the majority of the world are religious...
Ever been to Thailand? Cambodia? Burma? Middle East? Italy? South America? We know religion has a STRONG following...
What I am saying is that if children were taught today about meditation, and the power of the mind and soul, learn to use the mind, explore it as a craft. Learn all the positives, and reap the benefits it has we will see more positive philosophy and less negativity! sure it�s a very self absorbing craft if you get to deep into it... but I mean study it enough so it becomes main stream you know what I mean?,,.
If all children were given lessons in spirituality as healing, and enlightenment I think then scientists would start to put more research into it instead of calling it MUMBO JUMBO! And once research happens scientists will experience it and see the truth... (Their is more to life than what you think)
Now I don�t want to sound like a GURU or spiritual healer or something...
But the greatest philosophers of the past reached the state of wisdom from meditating and searching within. If more people were taught these methods I think we would find more answers. We spend too much time looking outward than we do inward! And it�s VERY hard as Rteacher was saying to be that good, like Luis and the monk! Only a few come a long every so many years that stands out!
Anyway IM just saying, not enough research is being done on the mind and the spirit; the people who do it are looked down on as pseudo scientists or paranormal enthusiasts.

Quote:

Are you trying to convert me by making baseless accusations or just trying to get a rise out of me? Pretty pathetic either way

You denying you have a pessimistic outlook on life?

Quote:

Please tell me where I discarded whatever philosophy you're talking about as rubbish. You're seriously not making any sense at all.

Come on now... be honest with yourself...
How could you take what a deist philosopher tells you about the world to be straight?

Quote:

You asked evolution to explain the origin of life and the universe. Do you ask your doctor to tell you the meaning of life? Get some perspective.

I am not the one holding onto a theory with dear life with not enough evidence! and NO beginning!
You guys have issues with Christianity! I think you need to read some psychiatry books and find out where the issues are... IM serious you too tomato! This is not an insult ok... but deep down somewhere you guys must have been hurt ... so you reject anything to do with a possibility of a god! You are totally closed off to other alternatives... And that�s really sad!

nateium

Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject:

Underwaterbob wrote:

nateium wrote:

Trinitarian wrote:

1. According to evolution fish are the first vertebrates. Where are all the fossils showing the huge transition from invertebrates to vertebrates?
2. Did everything come from nothing or is then universe eternal?
3. In terms of the "Cambrian explosion" where is the evidence of any transitional forms leading up to this?
4. What good is a bird with half a wing?
5. Describe the evolution of the eye.
More may come....

Did they have science classes in your high school? Did you just refuse to pay attention?

Back to Bio 101....sigh. Rolling Eyes

Don't bother. He/she ran out of arguments and stopped posting. The same thing happened the last time it was arguing everything in the bible was true because it's "THE MOST HISTORICALLY ACCURATE BOOK FROM ANTIQUITY".

You can lead a horse to water........

Sometimes I wonder if some people are just ruled by emotions and can never understand what it mean to at least try to be objective. When religious people start in on this topic I can see the eyes light up with feeling, and the brain shut down.

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:05 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

you�re saying less people are spiritual because of some natural tendency to deny spirituality. Why then, as you've informed us before, do the religious outnumber those who aren't?

That is a question which can be settled by majority vote?

Quote:

And once research happens scientists will experience it and see the truth... (Their is more to life than what you think)

You mean research on meditation?
The advocates of Transcendental Meditation show bar graphs from a controlled experiment, but they show those bar graphs in a deceptive way. They chop off part of the vertical axis so that the difference appears greater than it really is.

Quote:

You denying you have a pessimistic outlook on life?

How are we pessimistic?
By holding negative views toward religion?
How is that any different from your holding negative views toward our opinions?

[quote]I am not the one holding onto a theory with dear life with not enough evidence! and NO beginning!

So every theory has to explain how life started.
The theory that Sir Francis Bacon wrote the plays attributed to Shakespeare is no good because it doesn't explain how life started.

Quote:

You guys have issues with Christianity!

You have an issue with Evolution.
What's the difference?

Quote:

I think you need to read some psychiatry books and find out where the issues are.

Like I tried to tell you earlier today: we might find out that the issue is with Christianity, not us.

Quote:

This is not an insult ok... but deep down somewhere you guys must have been hurt ... so you reject anything to do with a possibility of a god!

When did anybody on this thread say there's no God?
I'm not saying that there isn't a God, but I am saying that if there is an all-loving and all-wise God, he must be displeased with what has been done in his name.
He must be displeased with divers factions of Islam killing each other.
He must have been displeased with the Inquisition.
He must be displeased with Rteacher coming on the forum and calling us all atheists.
He must be displeased with you coming on the forum and calling us all pessimists.
He must be displeased with preachers raving and ranting at the congregation for being hell-bound sinners, while those same people consult therapists who are doing what they could to improve their self-image.

Quote:

You are totally closed off to other alternatives

How do you know?
When has anyone come up with any Cambrian mammals?
When has anyone come up with a cogent argument for Flood geology?
When has anyone come up with a radiometric instrument which indicates a worldwide flood in 2348 BC and which stops at 4004 BC?

Show us all this evidence and we will all get together for a scrumptious meal of 까마귀까스.

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject:

tomato wrote:

You probably don't see yourself as we see you, then.
I'm not talking about disagreement in general, I'm talking about disrespectful disagreement.

No more like you choose to see me in a way you want to see me.
Maybe you understand a little how Christians feel when they are put into a room with you lot.

tomato wrote:

Don�t play the innocent card now.. We are all guilty of it! Some do it more than others... and BOB certainly has had his day in the sand pit...

Quote:

You don't understand the philosophy . . .

tomato wrote:

Another insult.
!

I also said! I don�t understand it either.. Why take it as an insult when someone tells you that you don�t know something? I can tell you don�t know how to make zingara! It�s not meant to be an insult it�s just letting you know that you don�t know it...becuase you haven�t been trained in it. It�s not an insult...
Guess it might come off that way if someone was insecure...
Are you insecure?

Quote:

Listen dude!

tomato wrote:

That's not hateful?!

Not at all.. IM asking him to listen to me for a second...and calling him DUDE instead of underwater bob!
You are taking it as an insult; again I am confused why your personality does this. Perhaps your mother or sister might be able to answer that question. But to me calling someone dude is a friendly gesture to someone as a stranger. A rude gesture might be YA!! Or LISTEN DICK!
Again you see it as pessimistic and I see it as optimistic.
Dude means person that�s all.

Quote:

Oblivious? No! more like ambiguous
You grew up in a very religious house did you?

Quote:

Instead of approaching everything in life as negative why don�t you research it a little and then ask some questions.

tomato wrote:

Another Parent/Child response. [.

I think you have issues with authority don�t you?
I am not not telling you what to do.. I am just giving some advice on how to look at life...
Again you take it the wrong way, this is a self esteem issue perhaps?
I ask a lot of questions because I can�t read your body language to know the kind of person you are.
But you are extremely defensive, I would have to know you why this is..

Quote:

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to talk about Evolution and Creationism.
If anyone wants to talk about Evolutionists and Creationists, maybe we can start another thread

Evolution and creationsm?.. I think you have already made up your mind tomato!
So what�s to debate? Closed minded people need not debate! They have already made up their minds!

Like you said! Plenty of creationism sites on the internet for you to go in and call theists stupid!
And don�t tell me you don�t think theists are stupid! If you are anything like Dawkins then of course you do, I mean how could an intelligent person believe in fairytales right?

but hey, want to get back to the real debate.. which I dont know what it is.. becuase every thread always turned into this becuase there is no conclusion so to keep it alive we just drift off! but hey why dont people start making it interesting! why don't we discuss questions which we dont know!

ernie

Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject:

worst debate ever. i feel like an idiot for even contributing to this argument, about 6 pages back there, somewhere...

itaewonguy

Joined: 25 Mar 2003

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject:

tomato wrote:

How are we pessimistic?
By holding negative views toward religion?
How is that any different from your holding negative views toward our opinions? !

What opinion is that? That I don�t know! I am not the one who has made up my mind. You are...
I am undecided remember?

I am confused. Because further down the page you say you agree in the possibility of a god!
What is it, are you atheists or agnostic?
Pessimistic is something which you can answer on your own! I think you no or your friends will know.
I am assuming you are. If I am wrong so be it.

Quote:

You have an issue with Evolution.
What's the difference?

I don�t have an issue Like you guys have! I�m just advocating that god is a possibility and that evolution as we know it might have been from the touch of god! Maybe Michele Angelo got it wrong! Maybe the picture should have been GOD touching the pond of water where life supposable generated...

Quote:

When did anybody on this thread say there's no God?

OHHH PLEASE!! Are you not atheist???

Quote:

You are confusing me... what exactly is your position??

Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject:

itaewonguy wrote:

You guys have issues with Christianity! I think you need to read some psychiatry books and find out where the issues are... IM serious you too tomato! This is not an insult ok... but deep down somewhere you guys must have been hurt ... so you reject anything to do with a possibility of a god! You are totally closed off to other alternatives... And that�s really sad!

Evolutionary theory is not a religion. It is not an alternative to spirituality. It is not a faith. You are rejecting it based solely on your opinion then accusing it's supporters of being closed minded, non-spiritual or pessimistic.

No one in this "debate" has rejected the possibility of a god. Who here has flat out said "there is no god"? You are putting words in our mouths to suit your arguments.

The only thing that hurts is your ignorance.

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