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jdog2050

Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: Corporal punishment--your thoughts |
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So I read this on Koreabeat:
http://koreabeat.com/?p=3286
and I'd just like to know everyone else's thoughts on corporal punishment.
Frankly I�m mixed on this issue. I�m definitely not in favor of straight up corporal punishment. I think it�s lazy and obviously easy to abuse. However, I think that the threat should always be there.
Maybe I�m old-school, but I don�t think kids, up to a certain age, actually �respect� anyone in the adult sense. I think kids �love�, �fear�, or �hate� people (with a lot of indifference in-between) and that�s about it. Now, later on, in adulthood, you reinterpret those feelings as respect or disrespect but I don�t think it starts off that *complex*.
So, when it comes to kids, I�d rather be loved and feared than simply loved or simply hated. All this talk of kids respecting you is just a polite way for this woman to say what she really wants to happen.
The problem with Korea is that they�ve taken away an age old way of creating fear without replacing it with anything. So now, Korea teachers are simply loved (through overuse of games or being lax, etc), or simply hated because they are either uncreative or have no balanced way of punishing children because of parental intervention. |
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plynx

Joined: 03 Jun 2008
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:39 am Post subject: |
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i think many kids would benefit from a good old-fashioned kick in the ass. i've worked with some of the most disrespectful, god-awful human beings, and all that kept running through my mind was: why doesn't your mommy just slap the crap out of you and get it over with?
i don't condone people knocking their kids around for no apparent reason, but i also think that reprimanding someone verbally doesn't always tend to work (particularly with spoiled rich kids and their entitlement issues). not everyone has Nanny 911 skills of persuasion. |
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ChinaBoy
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Corporal punishment is good and necessary.
Problem is that some people will always take it to extremes or use it at inappropriate times. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Location: Next to a River
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Ihad physical punishment from my parents and i dont hate them because of it.
Its a complex issue and determination of control issues by government is a dangerous and complex issue. |
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Scotticus
Joined: 18 Mar 2007
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:18 am Post subject: |
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If you need to use violence to get respect from children, you probably don't deserve it anyway. |
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joshuahirtle27

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:38 am Post subject: |
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ChinaBoy wrote: |
Corporal punishment is good and necessary.
Problem is that some people will always take it to extremes or use it at inappropriate times. |
Which is why it's been completely removed from the homes and schools of North America. It's completely silly to remove it though. A child understands cause and effect relationships of "if you're bad you get a kick in the ass" much faster than "if you're bad I will take your ball" since they can go get another ball to play with. The important thing is to tell the child WHY you are administering said kick in their ass. |
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Goku
Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Scotticus wrote: |
If you need to use violence to get respect from children, you probably don't deserve it anyway. |
Yeah but do you remember being a kid and respecting anyone?
As a kid, you don't "respect" anyone. You either fear or love them, respect isn't even a concept that a young kid understands. Respecting someone means you admire their values, but kids don't have values. The only thing kids understand is greed and self preservation.
Thank god my father beat me. I'm thankful for it. I think I would have been doing drugs and pillaging... Hmm a stoned pirate does sound like a good life though....
A good beating is a great deterence from doing improper things. And obviously beating itself isn't good, it HAS to be done properly. The child needs to understand why they are being beaten and it has to follow from the offense asap. For example, when i was a kid I remember I was rude and said something offensive to my dad's boss like "you smell funny". Now this guy is the CEO of the company. My father took me aside, explained to me "You do not under any circumstance ever make fun of anyone... ESPECIALLY if they are in a suit." He then proceded to explain now he was going to beat me. I remember this moment and didn't mess up his chances at promotion by doing more stupid things. In fact, his boss started to like me a few years later when my father brought me up as a well mannered boy.
Good kids are a product of a good enviroment. But when you have a bunch of lawless kids where parents just think it's funny when they do something rude, it's almost impossible to raise an obident well manner child. Korea (like many countries) have lost the values of raising proper kids who understand manners and good behavior.
I'd never raise my child in the area I teach. These kids are demons and although I like gusto, it's really in all the wrong areas: being rude, obnoxious, and generally unlikeable. Whoever told us at EPIK that kids were well mannered and treat teachers with respect is full of BS. |
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plynx

Joined: 03 Jun 2008
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Goku wrote: |
Scotticus wrote: |
If you need to use violence to get respect from children, you probably don't deserve it anyway. |
Yeah but do you remember being a kid and respecting anyone?
As a kid, you don't "respect" anyone. You either fear or love them, respect isn't even a concept that a young kid understands. Respecting someone means you admire their values, but kids don't have values. The only thing kids understand is greed and self preservation.
Thank god my father beat me. I'm thankful for it. I think I would have been doing drugs and pillaging... Hmm a stoned pirate does sound like a good life though....
A good beating is a great deterence from doing improper things. And obviously beating itself isn't good, it HAS to be done properly. The child needs to understand why they are being beaten and it has to follow from the offense asap. For example, when i was a kid I remember I was rude and said something offensive to my dad's boss like "you smell funny". Now this guy is the CEO of the company. My father took me aside, explained to me "You do not under any circumstance ever make fun of anyone... ESPECIALLY if they are in a suit." He then proceded to explain now he was going to beat me. I remember this moment and didn't mess up his chances at promotion by doing more stupid things. In fact, his boss started to like me a few years later when my father brought me up as a well mannered boy.
Good kids are a product of a good enviroment. But when you have a bunch of lawless kids where parents just think it's funny when they do something rude, it's almost impossible to raise an obident well manner child. Korea (like many countries) have lost the values of raising proper kids who understand manners and good behavior.
I'd never raise my child in the area I teach. These kids are demons and although I like gusto, it's really in all the wrong areas: being rude, obnoxious, and generally unlikeable. Whoever told us at EPIK that kids were well mannered and treat teachers with respect is full of BS. |
perfect post. |
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TeeBee
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I'm all for corporal punishment, but only if used in conjunction with clear rules.
It was used during most of my school career, and was a fantastic deterrent to disrespectful and disruptive behaviour. It was stopped during my last few years at school, and you could CLEARLY see the deterioration in discipline among students in the lower grades when this happened.
The part that everyone forgets is that corporal punishment is very easy to avoid. Just don't break the rules! |
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Mr. Pink

Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Location: China
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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There are too many bleeding hearts that think it is barbaric to use corporal punishment, especially in the school system.
I really don't like that type of punishment being in the hands of teachers anyways, as someone has said before, it does get abused. However, I would love to have administrators have this option.
I remember when I was in middle school, the principal had the authority to use a strap if warranted. I only heard a kid get hit once in my 3 years there. Trust me, everyone in that floor could hear the strap coming down on the kid and the kid yelling in pain. If that isn't a deterrent to bad behavior, I am not sure what is. Suspending kids these days is like rewarding them for bad behavior.
From what I've seen in the Canadian school system, kids have way too much entitlement, and teachers have to spend way too much class time just managing behavior. If those classroom issues weren't around because students respected that there are consequences, there would be more time for kids to learn, and thus they would graduate a lot smarter and more equipped for the real world. |
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joshuahirtle27

Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Mr. Pink wrote: |
There are too many bleeding hearts that think it is barbaric to use corporal punishment, especially in the school system.
I really don't like that type of punishment being in the hands of teachers anyways, as someone has said before, it does get abused. However, I would love to have administrators have this option.
I remember when I was in middle school, the principal had the authority to use a strap if warranted. I only heard a kid get hit once in my 3 years there. Trust me, everyone in that floor could hear the strap coming down on the kid and the kid yelling in pain. If that isn't a deterrent to bad behavior, I am not sure what is. Suspending kids these days is like rewarding them for bad behavior.
From what I've seen in the Canadian school system, kids have way too much entitlement, and teachers have to spend way too much class time just managing behavior. If those classroom issues weren't around because students respected that there are consequences, there would be more time for kids to learn, and thus they would graduate a lot smarter and more equipped for the real world. |
What's gonna happen is they are going to be handed the keys to the kingdom and realize that the system they inherited it screwed up and they will be forced to fix it. Mostly cause we decided that it was okay to let them run wild and scream abuse if the teacher so much as looked sideways. There is no reason the students should be given so much leeway and teachers should have to bend over backward to make them happy.
If you cannot physically discipline children at school then for God's sake let the parents do it at home. It is absolutely ridiculous to tell the kids "you aren't going to be punished at home or at school, so make sure to grow up to be good." It's especially a problem since the only people who are allowed to discipline our kids are police officers. I would think that police intervention should be the last option. |
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Scotticus
Joined: 18 Mar 2007
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Goku,
You seem to mistake children for animals. I hate to tell you this, but I DO remember respecting people. I can't fathom the conditions you endured to be under the impression that children are the equivalent of dogs as far as their ability to comprehend anything besides "greed and self preservation." The irony, of course, is that research shows that children are hardwired to feel empathy and morality. (educate yourself: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080711080957.htm ).
We do agree on one thing, though. Good kids are certainly a product of their environment. Outside of the inherent flaw in your reasoning (how can you have good kids if kids are too base to understand good from bad... "good" just means "well trained" according to your previous assertions), you're quite right. You're a shining example. Because of your own experiences you feel that all children are monsters and, thus, all children should have violence hanging over their head if they stray from whatever arbitrary rules they've broken. God forbid, of course, that you raise your children to be capable of making decisions without the threat of bodily harm. Do a google on Montessori education if you'd like an enlightening look at how children turn out when you teach them how to make choices on their own rather than dictate their every move for them.
Further reading, if you're so inclined:
http://www.childwellbeing.org/publish/pf_empathy_influence.asp
http://tigger.uic.edu/~lnucci/MoralEd/overview.html |
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oldfatfarang
Joined: 19 May 2005 Location: On the road to somewhere.
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Corporal punishment is a perenial (and emotional) topic on this forum. We've all read the for and against. However, newbies to Korea need to understand: corporal punishment/s is a daily occurance in the Korean education system. Athough deemed illegal - this is just face - children are being beaten everyday in this system - even though some schools attempt to hide this discipline from their Western teachers.
Further, I challenge any Western teachers (who agree with corporal punishment) to witness a Korean child being 'disciplined' by a Korean teacher. It's not uncommon to hear of children having eardrums burst, being repeatedly hit in the genitals with fists etc. Korean students are beaten with sticks, pieces of wood, cut-off golf clubs, canes, paddles, and heavy wooden rulers. Google up Korean Teacher Beating Students for some enlightenment.
For me, in Korea I've met some of the loveliest kids ever (good manners, respectful and kind). These qualities haven't come from being beaten - they've come from good parenting backgrounds.
For proponents of corporal punishment, I challenge you to explain how European/Scandanavian children turn out ot be 'good citizens' without being beaten. Closer to home, nobody ever hit my daughter - and she's well on her way to being a qualified scientist and all round nice lady.
Further, perhaps proponents of corporal punishment/violence could also consider why Korea is a country split in half, and another country has to protect Koreans from their 'brothers'. It's easy to see why, when Koreans are taught to respect violence from a very young age. |
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jdog2050

Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Scotticus wrote: |
Goku,
You seem to mistake children for animals. I hate to tell you this, but I DO remember respecting people. I can't fathom the conditions you endured to be under the impression that children are the equivalent of dogs as far as their ability to comprehend anything besides "greed and self preservation." The irony, of course, is that research shows that children are hardwired to feel empathy and morality. (educate yourself: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080711080957.htm ).
We do agree on one thing, though. Good kids are certainly a product of their environment. Outside of the inherent flaw in your reasoning (how can you have good kids if kids are too base to understand good from bad... "good" just means "well trained" according to your previous assertions), you're quite right. You're a shining example. Because of your own experiences you feel that all children are monsters and, thus, all children should have violence hanging over their head if they stray from whatever arbitrary rules they've broken. God forbid, of course, that you raise your children to be capable of making decisions without the threat of bodily harm. Do a google on Montessori education if you'd like an enlightening look at how children turn out when you teach them how to make choices on their own rather than dictate their every move for them.
Further reading, if you're so inclined:
http://www.childwellbeing.org/publish/pf_empathy_influence.asp
http://tigger.uic.edu/~lnucci/MoralEd/overview.html |
Oh whatever.
1. Empathy =/= respect. Respect is something that is built from life experience and hindsight. It's taught, not hardwired. I did not at all infer that kids are not capable of morality and empathy, in fact that is what I meant by kids having a love/hate/fear paradigm. Kids can be hardwired to empathize, but at the same time they are also exploring boundaries--these are two concepts that conflict more and more as they get older, and if you don't give a kid boundaries, they will *learn* disrespect. See what I did there?
2. That leads me to my next point. Montessori schools are great. I've heard nothing but great things about them. But they are not reality. We have 6 billion people in the world. Yes, I wish every school could be Montessori, but it's just not going to happen.
3. I believe Korea is in a transition period. I honestly don't think the woman who wrote that novel is a good teacher. I mean, the fact that she completely lost class control because she couldn't beat the kids says a lot about her. But she does have a point. There's nothing to replace corporal punishment, and too much of the korean "old guard" are still in the schools. I believe that, as a replacement, the power should have been taken away from the teachers, but given to the principal. Then, maybe in 10 or 15 years, you could do away with cp all together. But I am indeed seeing in a few korean schools what I saw in my hometown after corporal punishment was just suddenly gone. Devolution. |
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jdog2050

Joined: 17 Dec 2006
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Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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oldfatfarang wrote: |
Corporal punishment is a perenial (and emotional) topic on this forum. We've all read the for and against. However, newbies to Korea need to understand: corporal punishment/s is a daily occurance in the Korean education system. Athough deemed illegal - this is just face - children are being beaten everyday in this system - even though some schools attempt to hide this discipline from their Western teachers.
Further, I challenge any Western teachers (who agree with corporal punishment) to witness a Korean child being 'disciplined' by a Korean teacher. It's not uncommon to hear of children having eardrums burst, being repeatedly hit in the genitals with fists etc. Korean students are beaten with sticks, pieces of wood, cut-off golf clubs, canes, paddles, and heavy wooden rulers. Google up Korean Teacher Beating Students for some enlightenment.
For me, in Korea I've met some of the loveliest kids ever (good manners, respectful and kind). These qualities haven't come from being beaten - they've come from good parenting backgrounds.
For proponents of corporal punishment, I challenge you to explain how European/Scandanavian children turn out ot be 'good citizens' without being beaten. Closer to home, nobody ever hit my daughter - and she's well on her way to being a qualified scientist and all round nice lady.
Further, perhaps proponents of corporal punishment/violence could also consider why Korea is a country split in half, and another country has to protect Koreans from their 'brothers'. It's easy to see why, when Koreans are taught to respect violence from a very young age. |
Please see what I just posted.
1. I don't think the power to physically discipline should be in the hands of teachers.
2. European countries have older public schools systems, more resources, and have had more time to redirect those resources.
3. I know the well behaved Korean kids you speak of. What age group were they? Are you entirely sure that their parents weren't using corporal punishment at home? Cause if you're not then your argument is invalid. |
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