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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Then he took it from the Peel Commission's language...
| from the Peel Commission report, July 1937 wrote: |
What are the existing circumstances?
An irrepressible conflict has arisen between two national communities within the narrow bounds of one small country. About 1 million Arabs are in strife, open or latent, with some 400K Jews. There is no common ground between them...They differ in religion and language. Their cultural and social life, their ways of thought and conduct, are as incompatible as their national aspirations...Arabs and Jews might possibly learn to live and work together in Palestine if they would make a genuine effort to reconcile and combine their national ideals and so build up in time a joint or dual nationality. But this they cannot do...
The conflict has grown steadily more bitter [since the Mandate began]...
This intensification of the conflict will continue...
in the end, a case of right against right...
"Half a loaf of is better than no bread" is a peculiarly English proverb...Partition seems to offer at least a chance of ultimate peace. We can see none in any other plan... |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| megandadam wrote: |
| i am trying to understand. |
Unlikely.
You sound like a Moon Landing conspiracy-theorist or a 9/11 conspiracy-theorist who claims he is "just asking questions."...........I think you need to show that you can deal intelligently with any of these starting points. |
asking questions is how i learn. sorry?
i am taking your advice. i don't really feel it's necessary, but let me try.
- i have read that human remains found here date back almost 600000 years. evidence of agricultural communities as far back as 10000 years ago (similar to the first evidence of farming in south/central america)
- kingdom of israel: it seems the jews had an empire for a while but surprise was eventually cut in two (israel and judah = jews and babylonians). from what i can tell, the diaspora began after the separation and instensified after the kingdom was taken over by the assyrians. the jews then were spread out/expelled/exiled/sold into slavery.
- yes, i read that there were a number of conquests of this land: roman, greek, egyptian (mamluk), and arab rule (almost 400 years). it seems the jews were granted some rights and were not persecuted as is widely assumed under arab rule.
- the ottoman empire (turk rule) began in the 16th century and generally improved the lot of jews until, essentially, the ottomans sided with the germans in WWI. the ottomans never really drew palestine's borders (you could say the ottomans are at fault for the whole thing, wait no that's a bit too general).
- you could say, without being wrong, that the balfour declaration started all the b.s. balfour declares a jewish state should be put in palestine (in exchange for financial considerations in the war).
the rest i understand ok. what i get is this: this land, geographic area, has had many foreign rulers. from what i've read, the people living here have not been too fond of this. especially regarding the turks, whom repressed the arab population. after the expulsion of the ottomans, the arab and jewish population (the jews had been buying land to the delight of the ottomans for $ reasons) wanted to get rid of the increasingly nationalistic turks and embraced the british (and whomever else). until the balfour declaration that is. it was only around this time that hostilities between arabs and jews really began to flare up.
is there anything else you want me to know? i am interested in this, and am honestly trying to learn more. don't be so suspicious!
pretty sure i have always dealt with issues like this intelligently; after all i did my masters in political science and women's studies (not that that means anything in the big picture, just trying to reassure you i am not some idiot who believes in everything i read).
thanks.
Last edited by megandadam on Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| But the real reason it interests me is that, as Britain's Peel Commission long ago concluded, this is a case of right against right. |
Amos Oz might call it a case of right against right, but I wouldn't agree. It wasn't a very good solution, as more than 4 million (some say 6 million) refugees can testify. |
You mean 4 million people lost their land in 1948? |
i think he's including all the children of the original refugees who apparently have a right to return. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Megandadam: I do not know any professional historians who deny that the Kingdom of Israel existed in ancient times or that Arabs persecuted Jews (the claim is that Eastern Europeans, namely Russians, persecuted Jews, that Western Europeans discriminated against them and would not let them really assimilate [see the Dreyfus affair], and that the Germans attempted to exterminate them) -- and I see no point in exchanging with you further here. I think you will believe what you want to believe and that is as far as you will go. This kind of exchange, by the way, is one of the things that does not interest me in this issue, Big_Bird. People's playing games, etc. |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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ok, but out of all i wrote up there, that was the one thing you replied to?
isn't a lot of this issue based on religious belief/support for jewish right to that land?
i'm at a loss - i read a ton of stuff just over the last little while like you suggested and that's it?
"My own view is this: immediate cease-fire on all sides. Then we untangle this one strand at a time with an eye towards the pre-1967, two-state end-game settlement D. Kurtzer and S. Lasensky proposed in their study-group report last year."
i read a bit about these guys. here is a link (you probably read it already, but anyways what do you think about his criticisms?)
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/obamas_new_foreign_policy_advi.html |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| megandadam wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| megandadam wrote: |
| ...and from a bird's eye view, it seems like the US/UN just plopped it on land being lived on by a number of different, coexisting peoples. that's all. |
I doubt you have a bird's eye view on this at all -- especially if you begin the issue at the UN partition. "Unconclusive at best." ROFL.
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i would bet that most people would view this conflict as starting from the un partition. and i was referencing that wikipedia article as being inconclusive regarding the exodus of jews.
so what is your take? in general, doesn't it seem like one day israel was not there and the next it exists as a country? i am trying to understand. |
Israel wasn't a good idea but the situation is what it is now. and Israel's enemies do not have clean hands in this they aren't just innocent victims.
Plus Israel is understandable considering Israel's enemies didn't have a great record on how they treated their minority groups .If anything Israel's enemies have become more oppressive since Israel was founded.
The left wing narative of the mideast conflict can only be so if the wrongs of one side in the conflict are whitewashed. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Meganadam: the "I-just-have-a-humble-question" routine bores me. Let us speak directly.
Whose sockpuppet are you? |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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haha what do you mean by sockpuppet?
we don't need to take over this thread. maybe i am too polite. we can end it here if you like. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Nothing. The sympathy boat sailed years ago. |
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Fishead soup
Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| David Duke Ex Clansman has taken on the anti- Zionist dogma. To the delight of anti-semites. |
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CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
In 1948 Israel�s enemies launched a war of annihilation. where all the jews of the area even arab jews would have been expelled or killed .
The mufit was a huge supporter of Hitler.
Does it count?
In response to Israel, Israel�s enemies persecuted their arab jews.
http://theoccupation.net/images/NYTimes_1948_Jews_in_Arab.jpg
Does it count. ?
Those who support Osama Bin Laden , Saddam Hussein , Ayatollah Khomeni or Hizzbollah and all those with a similar ideology are all fascist bigots who can�t be trusted to govern or protect their minorities. |
Again, this scumbag is trolling all around.
I dont see you calling Israeli apartheid a Zionist state. I didn't here you saying Ariel Sharon and his fellow bandits are fascists. But on a second thought, why would you say that? because you would no longer be a scumbag, would you?
Here is "Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"'s typical approach:
"Israel wasn't the best solution but...... [here throw a huge pile of s**t on Arabs and give a bunch of propaganda references supporting that pile of s**t.]"
Another approach of "Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee":
"Israel is foolish solution but.....[here again, fill this space with crap of your choice thrown over Palestinians and be racist as well]"
I don't remember "Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee" talking about how evil are Jews, right? but then why would he talk about'em? cuz talking about Jews is extreme racism while on the other hand throwing crap on the race called Arabs is perfectly fine and even a rewarding act. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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="CyberGuy"][
| Quote: |
Again, this scumbag is trolling all around.
I dont see you calling Israeli apartheid a Zionist state. I didn't here you saying Ariel Sharon and his fellow bandits are fascists. But on a second thought, why would you say that? because you would no longer be a scumbag, would you? |
The Bathists , the Khomeni followers and the Al Qaedists are more racist.
| Quote: |
Here is "Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"'s typical approach:
"Israel wasn't the best solution but...... [here throw a huge pile of s**t on Arabs and give a bunch of propaganda references supporting that pile of s**t.]" |
Oh it is propaganda. You George Galloway supportering filth.
| Quote: |
Another approach of "Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee":
"Israel is foolish solution but.....[here again, fill this space with crap of your choice thrown over Palestinians and be racist as well |
]"
right anything bad done against Israel is okay.
| Quote: |
| I don't remember "Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee" talking about how evil are Jews, right? but then why would he talk about'em? cuz talking about Jews extreme racism while on the other hand throwing crap on the race called Arabs is a rewarding act. |
It is not race thing. But Bathism Khomenism are Al Qaedaism are far worse than zionism.
Cyberguy has no problem with ethnic cleaning apartheid or racism if it is done to the right group.
| Quote: |
Khomeini fatwa 'led to killing of 30,000 in Iran'
By Christina Lamb, Diplomatic Correspondent
CHILDREN as young as 13 were hanged from cranes, six at a time, in a barbaric two-month purge of Iran's prisons on the direct orders of Ayatollah Khomeini, according to a new book by his former deputy.
More than 30,000 political prisoners were executed in the 1988 massacre - a far larger number than previously suspected. Secret documents smuggled out of Iran reveal that, because of the large numbers of necks to be broken, prisoners were loaded onto forklift trucks in groups of six and hanged from cranes in half-hourly intervals.
Gruesome details are contained in the memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, The Memoirs of Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri, one of the founders of the Islamic regime. He was once considered Khomeini's anointed successor, but was deposed for his outspokenness, and is now under house arrest in the holy city of Qom.
Published privately last month after attempts by the regime to suppress it, the revelations have prompted demands from Iranian exiles for those involved to be tried for crimes against humanity. The most damning of the letters and documents published in the book is Khomeini's fatwa decree calling for all Mojahedin (as opponents of the Iranian regime are known) to be killed.
Issued shortly after the end of the Iran-Iraq war in July 1988 and an incursion into western Iran by the Iranian resistance, the fatwa reads: "It is decreed that those who are in prisons throughout the country and remain steadfast in their support for the Monafeqin (Mojahedin) are waging war on God and are condemned to execution."
It goes on to entrust the decision to "death committees" - three-member panels consisting of an Islamic judge, a representative of the Ministry of Intelligence, and a state prosecutor. Prisoners were to be asked if they had changed loyalties and, if not, were to be executed.
Montazeri, who states that 3,800 people had been killed by the end of the first fortnight of executions, includes his own correspondence with Khomeini, saying that the killings would be seen as "a vendetta" and would spark opposition to the regime. He wrote: "The execution of several thousand prisoners in a few days will not have positive repercussions and will not be mistake-free."
The massacres, which came just before the Lockerbie bombing, were seen as a sop to the hardliners at a time when Khomeini was already in failing health and the battle for succession had begun between fundamentalists and moderates. He died the following year.
According to testimony from prison officials - including Kamal Afkhami Ardekani, who formerly worked at Evin prison - recently given to United Nations human rights rapporteurs: "They would line up prisoners in a 14-by-five-metre hall in the central office building and then ask simply one question, 'What is your political affiliation?' Those who said the Mojahedin would be hanged from cranes in position in the car park behind the building."
He went on to describe how, every half an hour from 7.30am to 5pm, 33 people were lifted on three forklift trucks to six cranes, each of which had five or six ropes. He said: "The process went on and on without interruption." In two weeks, 8,000 people were hanged. Similar carnage took place across the country.
Many of those in the ruling council at the time of the 1988 massacre are still in power, including President Mohammed Khatami, who was the Director of Ideological and Cultural Affairs.
"The massacre may have happened 12 years ago, but the relevance is that these atrocities are still happening", said Mohammad Mohaddessin, the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Iranian National Council of Resistance (NCRI), the main opposition group, who was in London last week to present evidence to MPs.
The NCRI has prepared files on 21 senior members of the regime whom it alleges were "principal protagonists of the massacre", including Mr Khatami and Ayatollah Ali Khameini, Iran's "Supreme Leader". Mr Mohaddessin will travel to New York to present the files to the UN and call for a tribunal to try them for crimes against humanity.
Mr Mohaddessin said human rights abuses were continuing in Iran despite the election of Mr Khatami, who "presents himself as a reformist". |
[/quote]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/1321090/Khomeini-fatwa-'led-to-killing-of-30,000-in-Iran'.html
According to cyberguy this article ought to be suppressed.
Al Qaedists, Bathists , Khomeni followers are all fascist bigots who can't be trusted to protect their minorities or govern shame on George Galloway and their suppporters in the west.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Again cyberguy only cares about crimes commited by one side more wose than that that he demands that any articles about the other sided be suppressed.
No your site is not enough.
| Quote: |
61,000 Baghdad residents executed by Saddam: survey
December 10, 2003
Saddam Hussein's government may have executed 61,000 Baghdad residents, a figure much higher than previously believed, a new study suggests.
The bloodiest massacres of Saddam's 23-year presidency occurred in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shi'ite Muslim south, but the Gallup Baghdad Survey data indicates the brutality also extended into the capital.
The survey asked 1178 Baghdad residents in August and September whether a member of their household had been executed by Saddam's regime, with 6.6 per cent saying yes.
The polling firm took metropolitan Baghdad's population of 6.39 million people, and average household size of 6.9 people, to calculate that 61,000 people were executed during Saddam's rule.
Past estimates were in the low tens of thousands. Most are believed to have been buried in mass graves.
The US-led occupation authority in Iraq has said at least 300,000 people were buried in mass graves in Iraq.
Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million people were executed.
Without exhumations of the mass graves, it is impossible to confirm a figure.
Scientists said during a recent investigation that they had confirmed 41 mass graves on a list of suspected sites that covers 270 locations.
Forensic teams will begin to exhume four of those graves next month, searching for evidence for a new tribunal, expected to be established this week, that will try members of the former regime for crimes against humanity and genocide.More graves will later be added to the list.
But nobody expects all the mass graves to be exhumed, and nobody expects to ever know the full number of Iraqis executed by Saddam's regime. |
This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/09/1070732211173.html |
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