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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Then he took it from the Peel Commission's language...
| from the Peel Commission report, July 1937 wrote: |
What are the existing circumstances?
An irrepressible conflict has arisen between two national communities within the narrow bounds of one small country. About 1 million Arabs are in strife, open or latent, with some 400K Jews. There is no common ground between them...They differ in religion and language. Their cultural and social life, their ways of thought and conduct, are as incompatible as their national aspirations...Arabs and Jews might possibly learn to live and work together in Palestine if they would make a genuine effort to reconcile and combine their national ideals and so build up in time a joint or dual nationality. But this they cannot do...
The conflict has grown steadily more bitter [since the Mandate began]...
This intensification of the conflict will continue...
in the end, a case of right against right...
"Half a loaf of is better than no bread" is a peculiarly English proverb...Partition seems to offer at least a chance of ultimate peace. We can see none in any other plan... |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| megandadam wrote: |
| i am trying to understand. |
Unlikely.
You sound like a Moon Landing conspiracy-theorist or a 9/11 conspiracy-theorist who claims he is "just asking questions."...........I think you need to show that you can deal intelligently with any of these starting points. |
asking questions is how i learn. sorry?
i am taking your advice. i don't really feel it's necessary, but let me try.
- i have read that human remains found here date back almost 600000 years. evidence of agricultural communities as far back as 10000 years ago (similar to the first evidence of farming in south/central america)
- kingdom of israel: it seems the jews had an empire for a while but surprise was eventually cut in two (israel and judah = jews and babylonians). from what i can tell, the diaspora began after the separation and instensified after the kingdom was taken over by the assyrians. the jews then were spread out/expelled/exiled/sold into slavery.
- yes, i read that there were a number of conquests of this land: roman, greek, egyptian (mamluk), and arab rule (almost 400 years). it seems the jews were granted some rights and were not persecuted as is widely assumed under arab rule.
- the ottoman empire (turk rule) began in the 16th century and generally improved the lot of jews until, essentially, the ottomans sided with the germans in WWI. the ottomans never really drew palestine's borders (you could say the ottomans are at fault for the whole thing, wait no that's a bit too general).
- you could say, without being wrong, that the balfour declaration started all the b.s. balfour declares a jewish state should be put in palestine (in exchange for financial considerations in the war).
the rest i understand ok. what i get is this: this land, geographic area, has had many foreign rulers. from what i've read, the people living here have not been too fond of this. especially regarding the turks, whom repressed the arab population. after the expulsion of the ottomans, the arab and jewish population (the jews had been buying land to the delight of the ottomans for $ reasons) wanted to get rid of the increasingly nationalistic turks and embraced the british (and whomever else). until the balfour declaration that is. it was only around this time that hostilities between arabs and jews really began to flare up.
is there anything else you want me to know? i am interested in this, and am honestly trying to learn more. don't be so suspicious!
pretty sure i have always dealt with issues like this intelligently; after all i did my masters in political science and women's studies (not that that means anything in the big picture, just trying to reassure you i am not some idiot who believes in everything i read).
thanks.
Last edited by megandadam on Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| But the real reason it interests me is that, as Britain's Peel Commission long ago concluded, this is a case of right against right. |
Amos Oz might call it a case of right against right, but I wouldn't agree. It wasn't a very good solution, as more than 4 million (some say 6 million) refugees can testify. |
You mean 4 million people lost their land in 1948? |
i think he's including all the children of the original refugees who apparently have a right to return. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Megandadam: I do not know any professional historians who deny that the Kingdom of Israel existed in ancient times or that Arabs persecuted Jews (the claim is that Eastern Europeans, namely Russians, persecuted Jews, that Western Europeans discriminated against them and would not let them really assimilate [see the Dreyfus affair], and that the Germans attempted to exterminate them) -- and I see no point in exchanging with you further here. I think you will believe what you want to believe and that is as far as you will go. This kind of exchange, by the way, is one of the things that does not interest me in this issue, Big_Bird. People's playing games, etc. |
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megandadam
Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Location: toronto, canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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ok, but out of all i wrote up there, that was the one thing you replied to?
isn't a lot of this issue based on religious belief/support for jewish right to that land?
i'm at a loss - i read a ton of stuff just over the last little while like you suggested and that's it?
"My own view is this: immediate cease-fire on all sides. Then we untangle this one strand at a time with an eye towards the pre-1967, two-state end-game settlement D. Kurtzer and S. Lasensky proposed in their study-group report last year."
i read a bit about these guys. here is a link (you probably read it already, but anyways what do you think about his criticisms?)
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/04/obamas_new_foreign_policy_advi.html |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| megandadam wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| megandadam wrote: |
| ...and from a bird's eye view, it seems like the US/UN just plopped it on land being lived on by a number of different, coexisting peoples. that's all. |
I doubt you have a bird's eye view on this at all -- especially if you begin the issue at the UN partition. "Unconclusive at best." ROFL.
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i would bet that most people would view this conflict as starting from the un partition. and i was referencing that wikipedia article as being inconclusive regarding the exodus of jews.
so what is your take? in general, doesn't it seem like one day israel was not there and the next it exists as a country? i am trying to understand. |
Israel wasn't a good idea but the situation is what it is now. and Israel's enemies do not have clean hands in this they aren't just innocent victims.
Plus Israel is understandable considering Israel's enemies didn't have a great record on how they treated their minority groups .If anything Israel's enemies have become more oppressive since Israel was founded.
The left wing narative of the mideast conflict can only be so if the wrongs of one side in the conflict are whitewashed. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Meganadam: the "I-just-have-a-humble-question" routine bores me. Let us speak directly.
Whose sockpuppet are you? |
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