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bish
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
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 Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:14 pm Post subject: Grammar: The difference between "what" and "w |
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My student just came to me with the following sentence;
"These people were probably hunters from WHAT/WHICH is now northern China"
I know that the answer should be "what" and "which" would only be used if the previous name of the area was given.
I told him this but he still thinks "which" is the correct answer. How would you explain to him that "which" is incorrect? |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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"Which" distinguishes between two or more options. In that sentence there is only one option. If you gave the former name, there are two.
But you could also say "the area which is now northern China". My explanation here is not going to be perfect, but "which" specifies. Its partners-in-crime are "this" and "that". You use "which" to be more specific. "Area" is not specific; to make it more specific, "northern China", you use "which" to lead in. In the example sentence, there is no noun to make more specific.
Hope that helps. |
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The evil penguin
Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Doing something naughty near you.....
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: The difference between "what" and &qu |
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| bish wrote: |
My student just came to me with the following sentence;
"These people were probably hunters from WHAT/WHICH is now northern China"
I know that the answer should be "what" and "which" would only be used if the previous name of the area was given.
I told him this but he still thinks "which" is the correct answer. How would you explain to him that "which" is incorrect? |
and yet another example of why so many koreans who studied english for much of their school/university life cannot respond with anything more than "I'mfinethankyouandyou?" to the question of "does this bus go to E-mart?" |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:24 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: The difference between "what" and &am |
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| The evil penguin wrote: |
| bish wrote: |
My student just came to me with the following sentence;
"These people were probably hunters from WHAT/WHICH is now northern China"
I know that the answer should be "what" and "which" would only be used if the previous name of the area was given.
I told him this but he still thinks "which" is the correct answer. How would you explain to him that "which" is incorrect? |
and yet another example of why so many koreans who studied english for much of their school/university life cannot respond with anything more than "I'mfinethankyouandyou?" to the question of "does this bus go to E-mart?" |
Why don't you ask in Korean? |
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The evil penguin
Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Doing something naughty near you.....
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: The difference between "what" and &am |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| The evil penguin wrote: |
| bish wrote: |
My student just came to me with the following sentence;
"These people were probably hunters from WHAT/WHICH is now northern China"
I know that the answer should be "what" and "which" would only be used if the previous name of the area was given.
I told him this but he still thinks "which" is the correct answer. How would you explain to him that "which" is incorrect? |
and yet another example of why so many koreans who studied english for much of their school/university life cannot respond with anything more than "I'mfinethankyouandyou?" to the question of "does this bus go to E-mart?" |
Why don't you ask in Korean? |
I do. But when i speak to educated koreans (especially teachers or co-workers in universities) who have been studying english for most of their life, I figure that maybe they would be more proficient in my language than i am in theirs. In most cases however, i am wrong. |
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I'm no Picasso
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: The difference between "what" and &am |
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| The evil penguin wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| The evil penguin wrote: |
| bish wrote: |
My student just came to me with the following sentence;
"These people were probably hunters from WHAT/WHICH is now northern China"
I know that the answer should be "what" and "which" would only be used if the previous name of the area was given.
I told him this but he still thinks "which" is the correct answer. How would you explain to him that "which" is incorrect? |
and yet another example of why so many koreans who studied english for much of their school/university life cannot respond with anything more than "I'mfinethankyouandyou?" to the question of "does this bus go to E-mart?" |
Why don't you ask in Korean? |
I do. But when i speak to educated koreans (especially teachers or co-workers in universities) who have been studying english for most of their life, I figure that maybe they would be more proficient in my language than i am in theirs. In most cases however, i am wrong. |
Your educated co-workers in universities can't answer, "Does this bus go to E-mart?" with anything other than, "I'mfinethankyouandyou"? That is a problem..... |
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The evil penguin
Joined: 24 May 2003
Location: Doing something naughty near you.....
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: The difference between "what" and &am |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| The evil penguin wrote: |
| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
| The evil penguin wrote: |
| bish wrote: |
My student just came to me with the following sentence;
"These people were probably hunters from WHAT/WHICH is now northern China"
I know that the answer should be "what" and "which" would only be used if the previous name of the area was given.
I told him this but he still thinks "which" is the correct answer. How would you explain to him that "which" is incorrect? |
and yet another example of why so many koreans who studied english for much of their school/university life cannot respond with anything more than "I'mfinethankyouandyou?" to the question of "does this bus go to E-mart?" |
Why don't you ask in Korean? |
I do. But when i speak to educated koreans (especially teachers or co-workers in universities) who have been studying english for most of their life, I figure that maybe they would be more proficient in my language than i am in theirs. In most cases however, i am wrong. |
Your educated co-workers in universities can't answer, "Does this bus go to E-mart?" with anything other than, "I'mfinethankyouandyou"? That is a problem..... |
a bit late for this i guess but:
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The evil penguin often likes to speak facitiously and/or in a generalising manner. Therefore, while he makes every effort to retain the element of truthfullness in all he writes, he does not guarantee that his every word can be interpreted as literal fact.
for example: If i happen to say "holy crap! it's raining bloody cats and dogs out there", do not expect to witness a shower of injured pooches and moggies...or in fact holy crap. |
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ACT III
Joined: 14 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no Picasso wrote: |
"Which" distinguishes between two or more options. In that sentence there is only one option. If you gave the former name, there are two.
But you could also say "the area which is now northern China". My explanation here is not going to be perfect, but "which" specifies. Its partners-in-crime are "this" and "that". You use "which" to be more specific. "Area" is not specific; to make it more specific, "northern China", you use "which" to lead in. In the example sentence, there is no noun to make more specific.
Hope that helps. |
If that doesn't work you could tell the student to look up "relative clauses" in a grammar book. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:31 am Post subject: |
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These people were probably hunters from what is now Northern China.
Like someone posted before, you can only use "which" if you had put some other noun after the "from".
I don't know what that area was called in the past but let's just say,
Fuzzbekkistan, 
These people were probably hunters from Fuzzbekkistan, which is now Northern China.
So if you add a noun after the "from" you can use "which".
the area, an area, the place, a place would all work I suppose.
These people were probably hunters from a place which is now northern China.
The reason you can use "which" here is because "a place" means one area out of many possible areas. There are many "places" in the world, but here we are referring to "a specific place" (one out of many).
Does this help? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:33 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: The difference between "what" and &qu |
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| bish wrote: |
My student just came to me with the following sentence;
"These people were probably hunters from WHAT/WHICH is now northern China"
I know that the answer should be "what" and "which" would only be used if the previous name of the area was given.
I told him this but he still thinks "which" is the correct answer. How would you explain to him that "which" is incorrect? |
Don't you love it when students don't believe you? I ask you, would you ever flat out refuse to believe a Korean who told you this (Korean) sentence is wrong and this one is right?
Anyway, you can tell him 'which' is a relative pronoun and so would have to follow not a preposition, as in the example, but a noun; a noun, moreover, that refers to a thing, not a person or else 'who' would be used.
I'm still a bit fuzzy on how to categorize the word 'what' in this case. What should it be called? A conjunction, a bit like 'when', perhaps? |
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bish
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
These people were probably hunters from what is now Northern China.
Like someone posted before, you can only use "which" if you had put some other noun after the "from".
I don't know what that area was called in the past but let's just say,
Fuzzbekkistan,
These people were probably hunters from Fuzzbekkistan, which is now Northern China.
So if you add a noun after the "from" you can use "which".
the area, an area, the place, a place would all work I suppose.
These people were probably hunters from a place which is now northern China.
The reason you can use "which" here is because "a place" means one area out of many possible areas. There are many "places" in the world, but here we are referring to "a specific place" (one out of many).
Does this help? |
Thanks, it's what I told him but I left school today with him still thinking the answer should be "which". |
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lifeinkorea
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Location: somewhere in China
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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How about this sentence.
"Isn't that the house which Jack built?"
Where are the two things being compared? This might be why the student is asking, because even though there aren't two things it is placing emphasis on one when there CAN be more than one and uncertainty. |
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Easter Clark
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Location: Hiding from Yie Eun-woong
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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When I get a question like this from an adult student who can barely string three words together, I just tell him "Both are OK." To that I usually get a confused look for a second, then a teeth-sucking sound, then an "I see."
Any explanation you give them will be lost on them anyway, when they're focused on such inane minutiae. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| lifeinkorea wrote: |
How about this sentence.
"Isn't that the house which Jack built?"
Where are the two things being compared? This might be why the student is asking, because even though there aren't two things it is placing emphasis on one when there CAN be more than one and uncertainty. |
The house is specifying one out of many. There are many houses, but isn't that the house which Jack built?
You could also use "that" but that wouldn't be part of the poem. |
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