|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:11 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Samurai Blur
Joined: 20 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| No_hite_pls wrote: |
| Glenn Beck is funny but I am not sure that he is trying to be. |
Glenn Beck is not funny... Even my far right wing father is easily annoying with his pathetic attempts at jokes while watching his show. You should get out more often. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
So you feel desire for independence, self-interest, and a desire for material things are menacing attributes? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Samurai Blur wrote: |
| No_hite_pls wrote: |
| Glenn Beck is funny but I am not sure that he is trying to be. |
Glenn Beck is not funny... Even my far right wing father is easily annoying with his pathetic attempts at jokes while watching his show. You should get out more often. |
I don't think it's Glen Beck's attempts at jokes that No_hite_pls was describing as funny. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Samurai Blur
Joined: 20 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Samurai Blur wrote: |
| No_hite_pls wrote: |
| Glenn Beck is funny but I am not sure that he is trying to be. |
Glenn Beck is not funny... Even my far right wing father is easily annoying with his pathetic attempts at jokes while watching his show. You should get out more often. |
I don't think it's Glen Beck's attempts at jokes that No_hite_pls was describing as funny. |
Haha, I see. Maybe I should get out more often. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
So you feel desire for independence, self-interest, and a desire for material things are menacing attributes? |
You compare "self interest" and "desire for material things" to "caring for fellow members of your society," as if these things are what composes the two respective political idealologies. When you compare them as such, which one seems more noble? (obvious rhetorical question)
The fact that you try to pass liberalism and conservatism as these things makes your viewpoints seem comic-book in nature. It must be nice to live in such a simple world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Ethical ideas we are naturally inclined to experience, obviously. The world over, certain ethics are essentially universal. |
That's a nice viewpoint, which I used to hold when I was a kid and thought most people around the world agreed with me, and only a few unnatural deviants screwed things up for the majority of freethinking Christians. Then I realized that there are BILLIONS, yes BILLIONS of people who didn't get raised in the way I was raised and had lots of different ideas from me. Then I realized this thing that I said already:
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| That's probably my real point. What is called "natural" tends to be whatever the speaker agrees with ... |
| Fox wrote: |
| Okay. So, you feel the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy -- is unnatural. |
Whether or not this is the most deeply linked thing to Liberal Philosophy or not is neither here nor there (personally I thought it was guilt, for everything everywhere), but I'm going to have to stick a big "yes" in your craw there. Yes, I do think the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society is unnatural. Why? Because its ethics, a social and cultural construct. There are many kinds of ethics, and most contradict with each other. Each group or subgroup of people in the world seems to have their own special code of ethics, and may or may not agree with their neighbors code of ethics. Wars have been fought over such disagreements. And they're not natural, or they would be the same everywhere you find people. They're always different, so always artificially created by some thinker or leader. There are natural things as a part of human nature, but they are much simpler than a code of ethics.
You are asking me to make a choice here but I only see one option. What's my other option again?
Look dude, your "natural" is defined by you. Its not my "natural". Its not Korea's "natural" either. I would think a world traveller such as someone who posts on a Korean ESL job forum would understand that the world is full of many different things. Stick to your guns as a liberal, I don't mind. But don't claim it as closer to the natural order of things, or you'll start to sound like a member of the KKK. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
So you feel desire for independence, self-interest, and a desire for material things are menacing attributes? |
You compare "self interest" and "desire for material things" to "caring for fellow members of your society," as if these things are what composes the two respective political idealologies. When you compare them as such, which one seems more noble? (obvious rhetorical question) |
I included desire for independence in that list for a reason. Many people consider a desire for independence to be a positive trait.
Why didn't you include my mention of this trait in your response? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Ethical ideas we are naturally inclined to experience, obviously. The world over, certain ethics are essentially universal. |
That's a nice viewpoint, which I used to hold when I was a kid and thought most people around the world agreed with me, and only a few unnatural deviants screwed things up for the majority of freethinking Christians. Then I realized that there are BILLIONS, yes BILLIONS of people who didn't get raised in the way I was raised and had lots of different ideas from me. |
I think billions of people who were raised differently than me still experience a natural ethical inclination to care for fellow members of their society. Every time I see even my youngest students rush to the aid of their fellow class mates when they get hurt or are sad, this concept is reinforced for me.
That said, I've all ready outright said I don't feel Conservativism is unnatural, despite the fact that I disagree with it. Indeed, it comes from a very place. It just happens to be a place other than our ethical inclinations. Any attempt to describe me as calling people who disagree with me unnatural is a straw man.
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| Yes, I do think the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society is unnatural. |
Then we have nothing to discuss. You're a completely alien being to me, one that doesn't have a natural inclination to care for fellow members of their society (or you could be lying about lacking said natural inclination, but I don't have much time for liars either.). Without such a natural inclination, you can't possibly understand where I'm coming from, so further words are a waste of time.
And before you say it, no, I'm not attacking you or insulting you, simply acknowledging that you've declared an unbridgeable gap between us. I'm actually somewhat disappointed by it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Every time I see even my youngest students rush to the aid of their fellow class mates when they get hurt or are sad, this concept is reinforced for me. |
What about when they ruthlessly tease each other, get into fights, make each other crawl along the floor in displays of power, and call each other bad names for hours a day every day? I guess you just ignore that part?
| Fox wrote: |
That said, I've all ready outright said I don't feel Conservativism is unnatural, despite the fact that I disagree with it. Indeed, it comes from a very place. It just happens to be a place other than our ethical inclinations. |
Did you delete the word "natural" from your paragraph there two times? Cuz previously you always said "natural ethical inclinations." I fail to see any substantial difference between "conservatism goes against our natural ethical inclinations" and "conservatism is unnatural." If you can give me any kind of difference besides a semantic one, please enlighten me.
| Fox wrote: |
Then we have nothing to discuss. You're a completely alien being to me, one that doesn't have a natural inclination to care for fellow members of their society (or you could be lying about lacking said natural inclination, but I don't have much time for liars either.). Without such a natural inclination, you can't possibly understand where I'm coming from, so further words are a waste of time.
And before you say it, no, I'm not attacking you or insulting you, simply acknowledging that you've declared an unbridgeable gap between us. I'm actually somewhat disappointed by it. |
But dude, I'M A FELLOW MEMBER OF YOUR SOCIETY! hehe. I'm not saying that I don't have an inclination to care for blah blah blah. I do. But its not a natural welling up of my very human nature within me that gives me this care. It was taught to me by my family, teachers, and other society authority figures, and is part of my identity as a responsible adult. Its an acquired part of me, not coming from within, but from without.
However, I do know some people in my very own society who were either not taught this or chose to not follow what they were taught, and have no care for or feelings of fellowship for other members of society. These people often commit crimes and are sent to jail repeatedly. You know, criminals? They don't have this supposedly natural inclination. Strange, but true. Also homeless people don't really have much love for their fellow members of society. Are criminals and the homeless unnatural according to you, then?
I'm just sayin alll political ideas ain't natural. I'm not sayin' I don't have any. But you can continue to look towards me in disgust, as you dramatically re-enact the No True Scotsman fallacy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Every time I see even my youngest students rush to the aid of their fellow class mates when they get hurt or are sad, this concept is reinforced for me. |
What about when they ruthlessly tease each other, get into fights, make each other crawl along the floor in displays of power, and call each other bad names for hours a day every day? I guess you just ignore that part? |
No, I don't. I just realize that a natural inclination to take care of one another isn't the only thing -- nor even the only naturally occuring thing thing -- at work in the human mind. Just as we have an inclination to care for people (an inclination most people would consider good, I dare say), we have an inclination to do pettily harm others as well (an inclination most people would consider bad, I dare say).
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
That said, I've all ready outright said I don't feel Conservativism is unnatural, despite the fact that I disagree with it. Indeed, it comes from a very place. It just happens to be a place other than our ethical inclinations. |
Did you delete the word "natural" from your paragraph there two times? Cuz previously you always said "natural ethical inclinations." I fail to see any substantial difference between "conservatism goes against our natural ethical inclinations" and "conservatism is unnatural." If you can give me any kind of difference besides a semantic one, please enlighten me. |
Just like all ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks, all natural ethical inclinations are natural, but not all natural things are natural ethical inclinations. Thus, Conservativism can go against our natural ethical inclinations, while still being inline with other natural features of the human character.
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| But dude, I'M A FELLOW MEMBER OF YOUR SOCIETY! hehe. |
You are, and do you know what? Despite the fact that we disagree on this matter, if you showed up at my door, desparate and in need of help, I'd do my best to help you. I may be wrong, but I think you'd do the same for me. This is despite the fact that I actually wasn't ever particularly taught to behave this way (in fact, my father actually took steps to reduce my vulnerability to such impulses).
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| It was taught to me by my family, teachers, and other society authority figures, and is part of my identity as a responsible adult. Its an acquired part of me, not coming from within, but from without. |
I genuinely feel that, while it's often encouraged by adults in a child's life, it's something innate to the child. There have even been reasonably plausible evolutionary explanations for the existence of such inclinations (though I hesistate to say they are proven fact).
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| However, I do know some people in my very own society who were either not taught this or chose to not follow what they were taught, and have no care for or feelings of fellowship for other members of society. These people often commit crimes and are sent to jail repeatedly. You know, criminals? They don't have this supposedly natural inclination. Strange, but true. |
Well, there are different types of criminals. Some criminals definitely do have said inclination; there are plenty of things that can get you thrown in jail that one could do despite having such a natural inclination. On the other hand, yes, there are definitely some people who genuinely do lack such inclinations entirely, and there are psychological terms that describe such people. They're not normal people by any means, and they're often incredibly dangerous.
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| Also homeless people don't really have much love for their fellow members of society. |
I don't know how true this is, exactly. I've only met a few homeless people, and they've generally been quite kind.
| mateomiguel wrote: |
| I'm just sayin alll political ideas ain't natural. |
Well, I'm not saying individual political ideals are natural to the human condition. Rather, I'm saying they tend to be inspired by something that is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
So you feel desire for independence, self-interest, and a desire for material things are menacing attributes? |
You compare "self interest" and "desire for material things" to "caring for fellow members of your society," as if these things are what composes the two respective political idealologies. When you compare them as such, which one seems more noble? (obvious rhetorical question) |
I included desire for independence in that list for a reason. Many people consider a desire for independence to be a positive trait.
Why didn't you include my mention of this trait in your response? |
Why haven't you pigeon-holed any negative ethical "traits" of liberalism yet? O wait, I forgot, they're more inline with our natural ethical inclinations! Superliberal saves the day! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
So you feel desire for independence, self-interest, and a desire for material things are menacing attributes? |
You compare "self interest" and "desire for material things" to "caring for fellow members of your society," as if these things are what composes the two respective political idealologies. When you compare them as such, which one seems more noble? (obvious rhetorical question) |
I included desire for independence in that list for a reason. Many people consider a desire for independence to be a positive trait.
Why didn't you include my mention of this trait in your response? |
Why haven't you pigeon-holed any negative ethical "traits" of liberalism yet? |
If you wish, I'll do just that: excessive optimism, to the point where it's a vice rather than a virtue. Another is a willingness to co-opt the resources of others against their will for their own endeavors.
Now will you stop whining? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
So you feel desire for independence, self-interest, and a desire for material things are menacing attributes? |
You compare "self interest" and "desire for material things" to "caring for fellow members of your society," as if these things are what composes the two respective political idealologies. When you compare them as such, which one seems more noble? (obvious rhetorical question) |
I included desire for independence in that list for a reason. Many people consider a desire for independence to be a positive trait.
Why didn't you include my mention of this trait in your response? |
Why haven't you pigeon-holed any negative ethical "traits" of liberalism yet? |
If you wish, I'll do just that: excessive optimism, to the point where it's a vice rather than a virtue. Another is a willingness to co-opt the resources of others against their will for their own endeavors.
Now will you stop whining? |
You're confusing whining with (obvious) sarcasm. And now that you've mentioned a couple of negative "traits" about liberalism (finally), do you still hold on to the idea that liberalism is more in line with "our ethical inclinatations," or could it be that both idealogies strive for the same basic ethical virtues, but in different ways? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| ropebreezy wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| the ethical inclination to take care of fellow members of your society -- the inclination most deeply linked to Liberal Philosophy |
| Fox wrote: |
| Conservativism is also in line with something quite natural: our desire for independence, our self-interest, and our desire for material things. |
Hey Fox, you should start a comic book. It'll be called "Superliberal vs. The Conservative Menace." Millions of children across the world will love it. Key word though: children. |
So you feel desire for independence, self-interest, and a desire for material things are menacing attributes? |
You compare "self interest" and "desire for material things" to "caring for fellow members of your society," as if these things are what composes the two respective political idealologies. When you compare them as such, which one seems more noble? (obvious rhetorical question) |
I included desire for independence in that list for a reason. Many people consider a desire for independence to be a positive trait.
Why didn't you include my mention of this trait in your response? |
Why haven't you pigeon-holed any negative ethical "traits" of liberalism yet? |
If you wish, I'll do just that: excessive optimism, to the point where it's a vice rather than a virtue. Another is a willingness to co-opt the resources of others against their will for their own endeavors.
Now will you stop whining? |
You're confusing whining with (obvious) sarcasm. And now that you've mentioned a couple of negative "traits" about liberalism (finally), do you still hold on to the idea that liberalism is more in line with "our ethical inclinatations," or could it be that both idealogies strive for the same basic ethical virtues, but in different ways? |
I suggested that earlier to Fox but alas - Democrats are good - Republicans are evil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
