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Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Job
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.38 Special

Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

Fox wrote:

.38 Special wrote:

Perry gave his opinion. He isn't lying.

Gov. Rick Perry said anyone who thinks poorly of George W. Bush's presidency is a "rank political hack." This is a lie: the group of people who think poorly of George W. Bush's Presidency includes people who are not rank political hacks. Gov. Rick Perry said George W. Bush kept America safe. This is a lie: George W. Bush left America far worse than he found it, failed to prevent a terrorist attack that has not been matched since in terms of destruction and devestation, and willingly sent Americans to their deaths in two separate unnecessary wars.

Stop being partisan and think about this critically for a moment.

Wow! I used to think you were just one-tracked, but this is getting bizarre, Fox. I say Perry has an opinion, you say I'm partisan. You say Bush was a horrible president, yet you think you're being objective?

My opinion of Bush, or any politician, or any party is irrelevant to the fact that Perry gave his opinion and in fact did not lie. How is it possible to lie about your opinion?

So I'll return the favor of requesting an argumentative posture: Fox, stop foaming at the mouth and think critically:

Perry gave his opinion of Bush. That's what he thinks of him. I think FDR was a hack and a damned enemy of the free people -- does that make me a liar?

You've got a lot of terms to define if you want to continue an argument of whether Perry is right or not. But if you take personal exception to everyone's opinion and you can make a career of moaning incoherent at the subway station while the world passes you by.

Quote:

It's questionable whether I have the right to call him a liar? Pretty sure that still falls under freedom of speech kiddo, especially given the fact that Gov. Perry is a public figure. What makes you especially hypocritical here is that Gov. Perry insulted people in his own statement, calling people who feel Bush was a bad President rank political hacks. You defend that, then attack me for "insulting" him by calling him a liar?

FYI, calling people "kiddo" doesn't just make you sound like a pretentious, arrogant tool, but it makes you sound incredibly childish, such that you cannot engage in even the simplest of disagreement without instantly falling into ad hominen. You say this in every dialogue we have. Does it make you feel like a big boy?

And there is a rather stark difference between the "freedom of expression" and spreading libelous disinformation. While there is no law against it there certainly are ethical questions.

And I'm not defending Perry's statement. However, his methods couldn't have been entirely too objectionable to you if your first reaction was to publicly reciprocate. Laughing

Lighten up, kiddo.

lithium

Joined: 18 Jun 2008

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

Fox wrote:

Senior wrote:

Fox wrote:

Article here

Gov. Rick Perry wrote:

PERRY: At the end of the day, when the history books are written, I think George W. Bush will go down as a very, very good President. Approaching great? I don�t know yet because I don�t know if we�ve seen the �

A year and a half since he�s been out of office, this may be a little bit early to write George�s history. But here�s why he was an incredibly good President: because this man kept America safe. [�]

Anyone who is not a rank political hack, who has an agenda, and looks at this President�s efforts � I mean, there are two things that I think people judge Presidents on: their safety and the economy.

As the rest of the article correctly points out, in terms of both safety and economy, Bush did a terrible job. A horrific terrorist attack occured, after which Bush sent thousands of Americans to their deaths in needless overseas wars. That's not safety, it's catastrophe. The economy fell apart completely under the Bush Administration by any reasonable standard, and a federal budget surplus turned into a deficit.

How can even die-hard Republicans accept this kind of rhetoric? If Republicans really want to stand up for economic conservatism, they're going to need to just accept that Bush was a mistake. Reality needs to set in.

Big whoop. What is the new guy doing to fix all the old guy's mistakes.

So instead of condemning Rick Perry for attempting to white-wash Bush's legacy with outright lies, your response is, "Well, in my opinion Obama's no better?" I obviously don't think Obama's much better (though he is at least slightly better; under an Obama presidency there's at least a chance for rubbish like Don't Ask Don't Tell to end, for example), but that doesn't excuse conservatives outright lying about Bush.

American conservatives need to get their act together. Our nation needs an actual conservative party. That means rejecting people like George W. Bush, even if it comes at the cost of the party in question's vanity.

Unless you have served in the military, you are not qualified to comment on DADT. If you have and still approve, that is just sick.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

lithium wrote:

Fox wrote:

Senior wrote:

Fox wrote:

Article here

Gov. Rick Perry wrote:

Big whoop. What is the new guy doing to fix all the old guy's mistakes.

Unless you have served in the military, you are not qualified to comment on DADT. If you have and still approve, that is just sick.

So members of the Joint Chiefs are "sick" in your eyes? Interesting.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

.38 Special wrote:

Perry gave his opinion of Bush.

No, he didn't. He made an assertion about Bush, and insulted anyone who disagreed by calling them a rank political hack. If you can't see that, you're too obsessively partisan to be worth bothering with.

.38 Special wrote:

Calling you kiddo isn't ad hominem argumentation. The fact that you can't see things like that is part of why I call you kiddo. Live with it.

.38 Special wrote:

And there is a rather stark difference between the "freedom of expression" and spreading libelous disinformation.

Yes, but given you're asserting I'm engaging in the latter, you clearly don't understand the distinction between the two of them. No surprise there.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

Fox wrote:

.38 Special wrote:

Perry gave his opinion of Bush.

No, he didn't. He made an assertion about Bush, and insulted anyone who disagreed by calling them a rank political hack.

Right. And? That's lying? I don't get why you don't think that's the man's opinion. A political hack is a subjective term.

Senior

Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

bucheon bum wrote:

Fox wrote:

.38 Special wrote:

Perry gave his opinion of Bush.

No, he didn't. He made an assertion about Bush, and insulted anyone who disagreed by calling them a rank political hack.

Right. And? That's lying? I don't get why you don't think that's the man's opinion. A political hack is a subjective term.

I hate to engage in ad hominems, but you will never get Fox to admit he is wrong. He will wriggle and twist, but he will never admit to making a mistake.

Having said that, he will modify his position in later conversations. Fox was basically a classic leftist 22 year old uni student (I have no idea how old he really is) when he joined this board, but has come around on many, many issues.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

bucheon bum wrote:

Fox wrote:

.38 Special wrote:

Perry gave his opinion of Bush.

No, he didn't. He made an assertion about Bush, and insulted anyone who disagreed by calling them a rank political hack.

Right. And? That's lying? I don't get why you don't think that's the man's opinion. A political hack is a subjective term.

Yes, it's lying. "Rank political hack with an agenda" may be a moderately subjective term, but we all know roughly what it means, and we all know plenty of people who think Bush was a bad president don't fall into this category. That means this statement is a lie. Even if it also happens to be his opinion, it's a false statement, and he can't possibly be stupid enough to not realize it's a false statement.

Opinions can and often do have truth values. Perry's "opinion" is factually incorrect. It's time to stop casually accepting people like Rick Perry trying to white-wash the history of their party and its candidates.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

Senior wrote:

I hate to engage in ad hominems, but you will never get Fox to admit he is wrong.

I've admitted I was wrong on this forum before. In fact, I'm one of the few people who has (Bucheon Bum and Bacasper have as well off of the top of my head, and I admire them for it). I've also happily admitted to uncertainty on topics.

Senior wrote:

Having said that, he will modify his position in later conversations.

Tell you what. If you ever see me reverse positions on whether Rick Perry lied when he said this, you go ahead and call me on it. When it doesn't happen, I'm sure you won't exactly be crowing about it.

Senior wrote:

Fox was basically a classic leftist 22 year old uni student (I have no idea how old he really is) when he joined this board, but has come around on many, many issues.

Which of my positions have drastically changed, exactly? Since I've "come around" on many, many issues, perhaps you could start with a basic list of 10?

Senior

Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

Fox wrote:

Senior wrote:

I hate to engage in ad hominems, but you will never get Fox to admit he is wrong.

Senior wrote:

Having said that, he will modify his position in later conversations.

Senior wrote:

Fox was basically a classic leftist 22 year old uni student (I have no idea how old he really is) when he joined this board, but has come around on many, many issues.

Which of my positions have drastically changed, exactly? Since I've "come around" on many, many issues, perhaps you could start with a basic list of 10?

Give me a list of two discussions where you admitted you were wrong (preferably with links to the thread, and I will give you a list (can't guarantee ten) of things you have changed positions on.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: Perry: Only Political Hacks Deny Bush Did a Very Good Jo

Senior wrote:

Fox wrote:

Senior wrote:

I hate to engage in ad hominems, but you will never get Fox to admit he is wrong.

Senior wrote:

Having said that, he will modify his position in later conversations.

Senior wrote:

Fox was basically a classic leftist 22 year old uni student (I have no idea how old he really is) when he joined this board, but has come around on many, many issues.

Which of my positions have drastically changed, exactly? Since I've "come around" on many, many issues, perhaps you could start with a basic list of 10?

Give me a list of two discussions where you admitted you were wrong (preferably with links to the thread, and I will give you a list (can't guarantee ten) of things you have changed positions on.

Okay. Here's one where I admitted I was wrong about the historic event D-Day:

Fox wrote:

Yes, I apologize for the mixup of the particular event D Day referred to. I don't think about such events frequently, and the wrong thing popped into my mind.

Here's another where I admitted I was wrong about the specifics of Blue Fin Tuna fishing:

Fox wrote:

I hadn't actually realized this. It seems I was in error regarding the Japanese ability to effectively fish the Atlantic variety of this tuna.

Note the casual way in which I accepted my errors and admitted to them. I have no pride with regards to discussions; if I'm actually wrong, I'd be embarassed to deny it. Being able to admit to being incorrect is a sign of security and intellectual honesty.

Have at it. I'm expecting a good list of the many, many issues I've reversed my position on.

Senior

Joined: 31 Jan 2010

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:27 pm Post subject:

Those examples are hardly what I was referring to. It's not as if you changed your view point on some major issue because you didn't know what D-day was, or you mis-typed salmon, instead of tuna. I'm not talking about where you got a fact wrong. I'm talking about where you stated a belief about a particular topic, which was later found to be false, and you admitted it. It can't be so that everything you believe at the start of a discussion is the same at the end. And not knowing a certain fact is not the same as this.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject:

Senior wrote:

Those examples are hardly what I was referring to.

The statement:

Senior wrote:

you will never get Fox to admit he is wrong.

... isn't exactly ambiguous.

Senior wrote:

I'm not talking about where you got a fact wrong.

One can only be wrong about factual matters, and thus, being wrong is always ultimately "getting a fact wrong." If you don't want to provide me a list of altered positions, though, that's fine. Maybe you could have dug up one or two thoughtless flip-flops with some real effort, but no where near enough to defend your ridiculous claim that I've, "... come around on many, many issues."

Given your inability to defend your claims, I think that's enough conversation about me.

The Happy Warrior

Joined: 10 Feb 2010

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:42 am Post subject:

If I may interrupt the back-and-forth that at this point precisely two people are reading, I believe this attack on the Tea Party is pertinent to the thread.

The Economist Blog: Democracy in America wrote:

NYTimes/CBS poll analysis wrote:

[Tea Party supporters] do not want a third party and say they usually or almost always vote Republican. The percentage holding a favorable opinion of former President George W. Bush, at 57 percent, almost exactly matches the percentage in the general public that holds an unfavorable view of him.

The Tea Partiers, 57% of them, still love them some unfunded-entitlement-spending, TARP-bail-outing, compassionate Bush. They just don't like Barack Obama.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:47 am Post subject:

The Happy Warrior wrote:

If I may interrupt the back-and-forth that at this point precisely two people are reading, I believe this attack on the Tea Party is pertinent to the thread.

The Economist Blog: Democracy in America wrote:

NYTimes/CBS poll analysis wrote:

The Tea Partiers, 57% of them, still love them some unfunded-entitlement-spending, TARP-bail-outing, compassionate Bush. They just don't like Barack Obama.

And that sums up the GOP in general: a bunch of freaking hypocrites.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:29 pm Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

The Happy Warrior wrote:

If I may interrupt the back-and-forth that at this point precisely two people are reading, I believe this attack on the Tea Party is pertinent to the thread.

The Economist Blog: Democracy in America wrote:

NYTimes/CBS poll analysis wrote:

The Tea Partiers, 57% of them, still love them some unfunded-entitlement-spending, TARP-bail-outing, compassionate Bush. They just don't like Barack Obama.

And that sums up the GOP in general: a bunch of freaking hypocrites.

Which pretty much applies to just about any politicians anywhere (with few exceptions).

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