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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Edited. Useless bloviation.
Last edited by stilicho25 on Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:55 am Post subject: |
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The throatcutters were already loose. The Russians had a long running war with Moslem people in Russia, china has had a low grade war with Tajiks , Uighurs and Turks since th 80s and the Pakistan India feud has shifted to Afghanistan. Of course the Taliban was fighting the Northern alliance. the Kurds fighting Saddam ,the Turks, Syrians for a homeland. It is not all about Israel.
Atta was a political extremist, the politics may have derived from the religion but it was political.
Of course the heavy-handed inept invasion of Iraq by the U.s. did not help. It was an action taken by a intellectually limited president who was sold the idea of entering the region on our own terms and re fashioning the political culture of the area.
It is just too simplistic to throw everything at the feet of the Israli- U.s. relationship. It is a complex region with so many things going on besides that relationship. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
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| I know. It's like this: A guy breaks into a house and kills the family less one son and the son hates the murderer because of a book he read once. |
According to the Israeli apologist narrative: Arabs for centuries were all just chomping at the bit to murder Jews and Americans for no rational reason. And then, by total coincidence, an American-backed Jewish state was formed in the middle of the arab world, thus giving the arabs the opportunity to start killing Jews and Americans, which they'd been dreaming of all along. |
Is it also the Israeli apologist narrative that the Arabs invaded Israel in 1948? And that both Syria and Jordan initially had plans to annex parts of what is now Palestine and prevent the formation of a Palestine state? |
This would seem to prove that the Syrians and the Jordanians were not at the time motivated by sympathy for the Palestinians. It does not prove that they were motivated by long-standing Muslim anti-semtism.
If they were also hostile to a Palestinian state, then their main concern probably wasn't Jews specifically. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| It is just too simplistic to throw everything at the feet of the Israli- U.s. relationship. It is a complex region with so many things going on besides that relationship. |
Definitely too simplistic. There's something to it, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel. And that's accepting Muslim extremist claims at face value.
For one, Al Qaeda wants the US in the Mid-East. This is, alone, a counterargument to reading too much into Mo' Atta's statements. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel |
Atta wasn't motivated by the creation of Israel but by Israeli behavior. That doesn't in itself mean that all behavior that causes the reactions much be immediately stopped, but the consequences of the behavior must be considered when pondering the usefulness of the behavior. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel |
Atta wasn't motivated by the creation of Israel but by Israeli behavior. That doesn't in itself mean that all behavior that causes the reactions much be immediately stopped, but the consequences of the behavior must be considered when pondering the usefulness of the behavior. |
You're right. I'll amend my statement.
There's something to damage stemming from the US-Israeli relationship, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel and its subsequent behavior, and possibly also the US's invasion of Iraq. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I am not saying that Israli behavior and the U.s. support it recieves is not one of the root causes of the problems.
It is just that, that is the simplistic answer supplied by the media. Rather than look at a larger picture of indigeneous forces and the change and turmoil they cause. Just blaming the U.S and Israel makes it seem that local actors have no power or influence and that everything revolves around the West and it's actions. Also it is very easy to forget that other powers from outside the region are playing games , India, Russia, China , all dabble in the political arena there.
But the easy simplistic view will prevail, no doubt. Bad U.S. bad Israel! Go git em". |
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Wai Mian
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Location: WE DIDNT
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
I am not saying that Israli behavior and the U.s. support it recieves is not one of the root causes of the problems.
It is just that, that is the simplistic answer supplied by the media. Rather than look at a larger picture of indigeneous forces and the change and turmoil they cause. Just blaming the U.S and Israel makes it seem that local actors have no power or influence and that everything revolves around the West and it's actions. Also it is very easy to forget that other powers from outside the region are playing games , India, Russia, China , all dabble in the political arena there.
But the easy simplistic view will prevail, no doubt. Bad U.S. bad Israel! Go git em". |
It's like the statement: "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you"
The US and Israel are convenient scapegoats precisely because there is so much that the organizations and states of the Middle East can point to as legitimate gaffes/human rights violations.
It's too bad because most of the states in the regions are complete failures and are able to conceal some (but not all) of this behind a wall of knee-jerk simplistic anti-Americanism, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Wai Mian wrote: |
| It's too bad because most of the states in the regions are complete failures and are able to conceal some (but not all) of this behind a wall of knee-jerk simplistic anti-Americanism, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. |
A substantial amount of support for Islamic extremism lies in American support for monarchical or autocratic regimes. Nevertheless, opponents of American involvement in the Middle East naturally under-emphasize this factor. We know Al Qaeda wants to remake the Middle East. Many of the regimes in the Middle East are insufficiently religious for Al Qaeda, and Al Qaeda struck the twin towers to spur an invasion. Meanwhile, those same regimes tolerate and even encourage a certain amount of anti-Americanism to take pressure off their own human rights failings.
I point this out not merely to put Israeli wrongs, and America's support of them, in perspective. I do it also to discredit the facile cui bono arguments of those who might suggest some 9-11 government cover up.
Think about it. If America completely turned its relationship with Israel on its head, and castigated it for its many human rights abuses, and disentangled itself from military co-operation with Israel, would extremist Islam thereafter be done with America? Of course not.
I still believe America should take advantage of the myriad opportunities Israel offers to radically alter its relationship with the Zionist state. But I don't have any unrealistic expectations. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| rollo wrote: |
| It is just too simplistic to throw everything at the feet of the Israli- U.s. relationship. It is a complex region with so many things going on besides that relationship. |
Definitely too simplistic. There's something to it, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel. And that's accepting Muslim extremist claims at face value.
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I think you've misread Fisk's article. He doesn't claim that the Israel/Palestine conflict is to blame for everything. He's pointing out that it is a very important factor, which is all too often ignored. At our cost. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
[.
Think about it. If America completely turned its relationship with Israel on its head, and castigated it for its many human rights abuses, and disentangled itself from military co-operation with Israel, would extremist Islam thereafter be done with America? Of course not.
I still believe America should take advantage of the myriad opportunities Israel offers to radically alter its relationship with the Zionist state. But I don't have any unrealistic expectations. |
Except that Israel could do the same to America. Hardly a convincing reason for disengagement. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| There's something to damage stemming from the US-Israeli relationship, but the bias on this board seems to be that everything stems from the creation of Israel and its subsequent behavior, and possibly also the US's invasion of Iraq. |
It's a good job that you've qualified this with seems. I don't come to this board very often, so perhaps there is a majority of posters here who claim all problems in the Middle East stem from the creation of Israel and possibly the invasion of the Iraq. In my occasional readings of this board, I can't recall any poster actually saying such a thing - but since I am here only rarely, I can't be sure that this is not now the bias on this board. So I must defer to your assessment.
However, if one ignores the role that Israeli beligerence and the invasion of Iraq have played in the region, one is wearing heavy blinkers. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| I liked the calm unbiased tone . throatcuters tearing the heads off children. No information, no facts just opinion and inflamatory rhetoric. It really doesnt explain what the problems or address any solutions. Basically just a rant. Not a good piece of writing. |
It's an editorial. Not an academic document. Secondly, I disagree with your apparant belief that we should always discuss war calmly and without emotion. Bollocks. On the contrary, it's very important to try to awaken people's emotion - especially their empathy for the enormous number of dead and mutilated victims our reckless actions have resulted in. All the ruined lives. The endless grief of mother and fathers, brothers and sisters, sons and daughters who have lost their precious family members to this needless reckless war that we chose for them. The f***ing awful misery we've put millions through. I think it's a great piece of writing if it confronts people with the bloody and ugly reality of war. Unfortunately, there's always a smug faction that will never be reached.
I think we need our noses rubbing in it - like a young dog who shits on the carpet. I wish there were more documentaries showing bloodied mangled corpses, damaged, disfigured and mutilated children, mothers gone half mad with grief. Forcing people to look at the very real and ugly cost of their stupid support for this invasion. But unfortunately, most people will never have a clue. It's just chess. Noughts and crosses.
German friends of mine grew up being confronted by documentaries about the horrific consequences of a war their parents' or grandparents' generation had supported. They were appalled when they realised the yanks and Brits were going to bring war to Iraq. They knew what a dreadful business it would be. Perhaps the problem with the Brits and the Yanks is that they've never been occupied in living memory. That's why we haven't got a f***ing clue.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
[.
Think about it. If America completely turned its relationship with Israel on its head, and castigated it for its many human rights abuses, and disentangled itself from military co-operation with Israel, would extremist Islam thereafter be done with America? Of course not.
I still believe America should take advantage of the myriad opportunities Israel offers to radically alter its relationship with the Zionist state. But I don't have any unrealistic expectations. |
Except that Israel could do the same to America. Hardly a convincing reason for disengagement. |
ROFL. Oh, no! Not an embargo on America by the mighty Israel! |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
[.
Think about it. If America completely turned its relationship with Israel on its head, and castigated it for its many human rights abuses, and disentangled itself from military co-operation with Israel, would extremist Islam thereafter be done with America? Of course not.
I still believe America should take advantage of the myriad opportunities Israel offers to radically alter its relationship with the Zionist state. But I don't have any unrealistic expectations. |
Except that Israel could do the same to America. Hardly a convincing reason for disengagement. |
ROFL. Oh, no! Not an embargo on America by the mighty Israel! |
LOL. That is amusing. |
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