|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jonpurdy
Joined: 08 Jan 2009
Location: Ulsan
|
 Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
It's not about stroking your own ego, it's about instilling the idea that if they are going to have a system of implied respect based on age, it should apply to everyone regardless of their nationality.
At school sometimes kids forget to add -샘 or -선생님 to my name. But that's mostly because the older teachers just call me my name and students overhear that. So I let that slide.
With friends we sometimes use banmal or add the -요, depends on how much we've had to drink 
The only time I actually got annoyed was when I was with my gf a few months ago. We went up to pay at a restaurant and the owner (man, 40s) said to her 4만원입니다. So I handed him my card, he looked over and said 4만원이야. I didn't really realize this until a few seconds later when it was too late to call him out on it. At least be consistent: if you're old and going to use banmal, use it on everyone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
WadRUG'naDoo
Joined: 15 Jun 2010
Location: Shanghai
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| eunjeong wrote: |
That actually means why is it banmal?
근데 왜 반말 하시는거예요? This is why are you using banmal. You can also change 하시는거예요 to 쓰시는거예요 |
Isn't that future form? I could be wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| WadRUG'naDoo wrote: |
| eunjeong wrote: |
That actually means why is it banmal?
근데 왜 반말 하시는거예요? This is why are you using banmal. You can also change 하시는거예요 to 쓰시는거예요 |
Isn't that future form? I could be wrong. |
No future is -(으)ㄹ거예요
This is -는 거예요. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kaypea
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| My students are cute. They like to argue whether or not it's banmal to say "hi" to me instead of "hello". Personally, I think it's ok to say "hi" to everyone, but I know their Korean English teacher says "hi" is like banmal, so I'm not setting them straight... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| red_devil wrote: |
Just to be clear for some of the other people. These are the acceptable times to use "Banmal".
1. Very informal usually used between close friends of same age or younger than you.
2. To people younger than you (but never on first meeting)
3. To students in a lower class than you (like Seniors to Freshman)
4. To someone of a "lower" social class (rare to see in these modern times tho)
Of course the point is that if you break these 4 points you ARE being disrespectful. When in doubt always address using -yo form or most polite -da/ka form. The Korean in this case is full of BS. 99.5% of the Koreans you meet if you're speaking Korean to them they will use -yo form at least. Older Koreans will use -da/ka form. |
The rules are more complicated than that. It is also not always acceptable to use banmal to someone who is younger than you even if you have met many times. Also it can be ok to use banmal to someone who is younger than you the first time as well. Too many variables. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Whether they use it or not shouldn't matter at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
red_devil
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| red_devil wrote: |
Just to be clear for some of the other people. These are the acceptable times to use "Banmal".
1. Very informal usually used between close friends of same age or younger than you.
2. To people younger than you (but never on first meeting)
3. To students in a lower class than you (like Seniors to Freshman)
4. To someone of a "lower" social class (rare to see in these modern times tho)
Of course the point is that if you break these 4 points you ARE being disrespectful. When in doubt always address using -yo form or most polite -da/ka form. The Korean in this case is full of BS. 99.5% of the Koreans you meet if you're speaking Korean to them they will use -yo form at least. Older Koreans will use -da/ka form. |
The rules are more complicated than that. It is also not always acceptable to use banmal to someone who is younger than you even if you have met many times. Also it can be ok to use banmal to someone who is younger than you the first time as well. Too many variables. |
Not much more complicated. And the only time you can use banmal to someone when you first meet is if you're talking to kids. If i meet a guy who's much older than me but we're both adults he shouldn't use banmal to me. (although you'll find that elderly people use banmal to everyone, they're old, probably gonna die soon so they don't care) But if meet a 5yr old kid or middle schooler i can use banmal no worries. You're right it's not ALWAYS acceptable to use banmal to someone younger even if you've met a lot of times, but if you do it's not going to be a big issue. The way i see it, if a girl younger than me starts referring to me as "oppa", or the guy starts referring to me as "hyung" than it's ok to use banmal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| red_devil wrote: |
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| red_devil wrote: |
Just to be clear for some of the other people. These are the acceptable times to use "Banmal".
1. Very informal usually used between close friends of same age or younger than you.
2. To people younger than you (but never on first meeting)
3. To students in a lower class than you (like Seniors to Freshman)
4. To someone of a "lower" social class (rare to see in these modern times tho)
Of course the point is that if you break these 4 points you ARE being disrespectful. When in doubt always address using -yo form or most polite -da/ka form. The Korean in this case is full of BS. 99.5% of the Koreans you meet if you're speaking Korean to them they will use -yo form at least. Older Koreans will use -da/ka form. |
The rules are more complicated than that. It is also not always acceptable to use banmal to someone who is younger than you even if you have met many times. Also it can be ok to use banmal to someone who is younger than you the first time as well. Too many variables. |
Not much more complicated. And the only time you can use banmal to someone when you first meet is if you're talking to kids. If i meet a guy who's much older than me but we're both adults he shouldn't use banmal to me. (although you'll find that elderly people use banmal to everyone, they're old, probably gonna die soon so they don't care) But if meet a 5yr old kid or middle schooler i can use banmal no worries. You're right it's not ALWAYS acceptable to use banmal to someone younger even if you've met a lot of times, but if you do it's not going to be a big issue. The way i see it, if a girl younger than me starts referring to me as "oppa", or the guy starts referring to me as "hyung" than it's ok to use banmal. |
Let me throw out some examples:
-One of my friend's uncle's is in his mid 30's. When I first met him, he used banmal to me. No discomfort for me.
-My Korean uncle's friends, who are in their 40's (which means they are not gonna die soon) use banmal to me. It would be odd if they used 요 to me.
-I'm 27 and if I meet someone who is around 21 or so, it's not uncommon for me to use banmal to them. Of course I can always be more polite and not do it, but it doesn't make me rude as they are quite younger than me. It doesn't require a 5 year old. Hell why would I be using banmal to a teenager or elementary school student?
-Teachers teach mostly using 존댓말. Even though the teacher is older, higher status, and met them several times. Teacher's when scolding use banmal and also when directly addressing a student. But sometimes they use 요 to be more polite to the student.
-Kids use banmal to their parents. Girls often use banmal to both parents, while guys usually use it towards their mother and 존댓말 to their father. There are some families who are quite strict though and make their kids always use 존댓말 (think rich traditional families).
-Some salesman use banmal to seem more "friendly." This can happen at Yongsan.
-When someone older than me is working somewhere and I am the customer, they use 존댓말. I guess you could say the customer temporarily has a higher status than the worker.
-Some teacher's and wokers who are the same age and have even been at the same school for years still still use 존댓말. Some teachers who are 20 years older than the other teachers still use 존댓말 to them, while some use banmal.
| Quote: |
And the only time you can use banmal to someone when you first meet is if you're talking to kids. |
Definitely false. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
take a rest
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Location: self-banned
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| akcrono wrote: |
| Whether they use it or not shouldn't matter at all. |
I disagree.
In English, kids using casual language with adults doesn't imply disrespect... I'm not an expert, but as far as I can tell, using banmal here on someone older than you or in a higher position than you kinda does. I've seen students being scolded because they were using it with me... and I guess I didn't know better at the time.
I really hope that kids aren't being taught that Westerners have no respect for each other... but you know, it doesn't sound so implausible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
red_devil
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| red_devil wrote: |
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| red_devil wrote: |
Just to be clear for some of the other people. These are the acceptable times to use "Banmal".
1. Very informal usually used between close friends of same age or younger than you.
2. To people younger than you (but never on first meeting)
3. To students in a lower class than you (like Seniors to Freshman)
4. To someone of a "lower" social class (rare to see in these modern times tho)
Of course the point is that if you break these 4 points you ARE being disrespectful. When in doubt always address using -yo form or most polite -da/ka form. The Korean in this case is full of BS. 99.5% of the Koreans you meet if you're speaking Korean to them they will use -yo form at least. Older Koreans will use -da/ka form. |
The rules are more complicated than that. It is also not always acceptable to use banmal to someone who is younger than you even if you have met many times. Also it can be ok to use banmal to someone who is younger than you the first time as well. Too many variables. |
Not much more complicated. And the only time you can use banmal to someone when you first meet is if you're talking to kids. If i meet a guy who's much older than me but we're both adults he shouldn't use banmal to me. (although you'll find that elderly people use banmal to everyone, they're old, probably gonna die soon so they don't care) But if meet a 5yr old kid or middle schooler i can use banmal no worries. You're right it's not ALWAYS acceptable to use banmal to someone younger even if you've met a lot of times, but if you do it's not going to be a big issue. The way i see it, if a girl younger than me starts referring to me as "oppa", or the guy starts referring to me as "hyung" than it's ok to use banmal. |
Let me throw out some examples:
-One of my friend's uncle's is in his mid 30's. When I first met him, he used banmal to me. No discomfort for me.
-My Korean uncle's friends, who are in their 40's (which means they are not gonna die soon) use banmal to me. It would be odd if they used 요 to me.
-I'm 27 and if I meet someone who is around 21 or so, it's not uncommon for me to use banmal to them. Of course I can always be more polite and not do it, but it doesn't make me rude as they are quite younger than me. It doesn't require a 5 year old. Hell why would I be using banmal to a teenager or elementary school student?
-Teachers teach mostly using 존댓말. Even though the teacher is older, higher status, and met them several times. Teacher's when scolding use banmal and also when directly addressing a student. But sometimes they use 요 to be more polite to the student.
-Kids use banmal to their parents. Girls often use banmal to both parents, while guys usually use it towards their mother and 존댓말 to their father. There are some families who are quite strict though and make their kids always use 존댓말 (think rich traditional families).
-Some salesman use banmal to seem more "friendly." This can happen at Yongsan.
-When someone older than me is working somewhere and I am the customer, they use 존댓말. I guess you could say the customer temporarily has a higher status than the worker.
-Some teacher's and wokers who are the same age and have even been at the same school for years still still use 존댓말. Some teachers who are 20 years older than the other teachers still use 존댓말 to them, while some use banmal.
| Quote: |
And the only time you can use banmal to someone when you first meet is if you're talking to kids. |
Definitely false. |
Most teachers that teach elementary and high school use banmal to the kids. As i said in my post it's common for quite older than you people to use banmal.
Fundamentally, although this is changing, banmal should ONLY be used with people who are similar status, similar age, and someone whom you are close to. Should teachers use -yo when talking to their kids? Actually yes. It's a classroom and respect is given and taken from both sides - in a lot of ways at Hagwon's the kids are the customer, which is why capital punishment is usually not allowed by the Hagwon owner. Should elderly people use polite form when talking to you, a stranger no matter your age? Yes. But we're talking semantics, and "politeness" as a whole i think is rapidly going down the drain. To use banmal to "show friendliness" is a double edged sword. It can either bring you closer to someone or it can offend them. In Japan you shouldn't even use someone's first name to call them, you should ask permission...
Interesting though i found this article where they talk about "respect" style coaching that Hong Myong Bo is using by not speaking banmal to any of the players.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2927709 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Oreovictim
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| red_devil wrote: |
| Slowmotion wrote: |
| red_devil wrote: |
Just to be clear for some of the other people. These are the acceptable times to use "Banmal".
1. Very informal usually used between close friends of same age or younger than you.
2. To people younger than you (but never on first meeting)
3. To students in a lower class than you (like Seniors to Freshman)
4. To someone of a "lower" social class (rare to see in these modern times tho)
Of course the point is that if you break these 4 points you ARE being disrespectful. When in doubt always address using -yo form or most polite -da/ka form. The Korean in this case is full of BS. 99.5% of the Koreans you meet if you're speaking Korean to them they will use -yo form at least. Older Koreans will use -da/ka form. |
The rules are more complicated than that. It is also not always acceptable to use banmal to someone who is younger than you even if you have met many times. Also it can be ok to use banmal to someone who is younger than you the first time as well. Too many variables. |
Not much more complicated. And the only time you can use banmal to someone when you first meet is if you're talking to kids. If i meet a guy who's much older than me but we're both adults he shouldn't use banmal to me. (although you'll find that elderly people use banmal to everyone, they're old, probably gonna die soon so they don't care) But if meet a 5yr old kid or middle schooler i can use banmal no worries. You're right it's not ALWAYS acceptable to use banmal to someone younger even if you've met a lot of times, but if you do it's not going to be a big issue. The way i see it, if a girl younger than me starts referring to me as "oppa", or the guy starts referring to me as "hyung" than it's ok to use banmal. |
Let me throw out some examples:
-One of my friend's uncle's is in his mid 30's. When I first met him, he used banmal to me. No discomfort for me.
-My Korean uncle's friends, who are in their 40's (which means they are not gonna die soon) use banmal to me. It would be odd if they used 요 to me.
-I'm 27 and if I meet someone who is around 21 or so, it's not uncommon for me to use banmal to them. Of course I can always be more polite and not do it, but it doesn't make me rude as they are quite younger than me. It doesn't require a 5 year old. Hell why would I be using banmal to a teenager or elementary school student?
-Teachers teach mostly using 존댓말. Even though the teacher is older, higher status, and met them several times. Teacher's when scolding use banmal and also when directly addressing a student. But sometimes they use 요 to be more polite to the student.
-Kids use banmal to their parents. Girls often use banmal to both parents, while guys usually use it towards their mother and 존댓말 to their father. There are some families who are quite strict though and make their kids always use 존댓말 (think rich traditional families).
-Some salesman use banmal to seem more "friendly." This can happen at Yongsan.
-When someone older than me is working somewhere and I am the customer, they use 존댓말. I guess you could say the customer temporarily has a higher status than the worker.
-Some teacher's and wokers who are the same age and have even been at the same school for years still still use 존댓말. Some teachers who are 20 years older than the other teachers still use 존댓말 to them, while some use banmal.
| Quote: |
And the only time you can use banmal to someone when you first meet is if you're talking to kids. |
Definitely false. |
Slowmo, you seem to be a bit of an expert. I's got a question. Are there certain Korean sentences that are ok to use in 반말? For instance, "잠깐만", "있어/없어" and "아니"? A Korean told me that the first one is ok, but she might have been trying to save face. Anyway, I've heard these three so many times without a "요" that either it's ok, or I've met far too many Koreans who have been using 반말. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jizza
Joined: 24 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Oreovictim wrote: |
Slowmo, you seem to be a bit of an expert. I's got a question. Are there certain Korean sentences that are ok to use in 반말? For instance, "잠깐만", "있어/없어" and "아니"? A Korean told me that the first one is ok, but she might have been trying to save face. Anyway, I've heard these three so many times without a "요" that either it's ok, or I've met far too many Koreans who have been using 반말. |
My coworkers hardly ever say "잠깐만" or "잠시만" without the "요".
To do so would be rude I think.
And the others are also missing the "요". I don't think they're
"special" words which you can say without the "요" and get away with it |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
IlIlNine
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Location: Gunpo, Gyonggi, SoKo
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Koreans should apply the same standards to foreigners as they do to themselves in regards to politeness of speech. Imagine if there were a "don't speak politely to Asians" rule in English! How well would that go over?
In class, if you're teaching to the group, you should use the polite form. If you're talking to an individual, the casual.
You can let-slip a bit of banmal if you have a close relationship with someone who's older (ie - an older girlfriend) - but this is far more acceptable in private.
Something to ultimately keep in mind: there's a bit of wiggle room here. Koreans commonly ask each other how they'd like to be addressed as - so if you don't know what form to use or how to address someone, just ask! If there really is not much difference in age, then you can usually get the other person to agree to use banmal (especially if you have a close relationship) -- just be sure to ask first if it's ok! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vagabundo
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is all pure nonsense.
The forms of English used among strangers, and people you don't know very well are always quite "polite", regardless of the ages involved.
to me, this is eminently more logical than the Korean approach (but let them do what they want to do)
if I'm an adult I'm not going to use overly polite language to people I know well, especially if the age difference is under 15 years or so.
if I don't know someone well, or we're strangers, or we're meeting for the first time, we use the polite form with everyone, regardless of age.
A gruff 50 year old, using barking, order like English to a 20 year old risks a confrontation, perhaps even a physical confrontation.
at the very least, he'll probably be told to do something to himself that I can't mention on this forum. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slowmotion
Joined: 15 Aug 2009
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jizza wrote: |
| Oreovictim wrote: |
Slowmo, you seem to be a bit of an expert. I's got a question. Are there certain Korean sentences that are ok to use in 반말? For instance, "잠깐만", "있어/없어" and "아니"? A Korean told me that the first one is ok, but she might have been trying to save face. Anyway, I've heard these three so many times without a "요" that either it's ok, or I've met far too many Koreans who have been using 반말. |
My coworkers hardly ever say "잠깐만" or "잠시만" without the "요".
To do so would be rude I think.
And the others are also missing the "요". I don't think they're
"special" words which you can say without the "요" and get away with it |
The only instances I can think of off the top of my head is when you are basically talking to yourself. Someone says something to you, and you say -"아 맞다!" (ah that's right)
and sometimes using the 구나 ending
However even one word phrases are supposed to have 요. This seems funny, especially when someone asks you what you want to drink, you naturally just wanna say "coke" (or 콜라). But the proper answer would be 콜라요.
So to answer your question, the person should have been saying 잠깐만요 or 잠시만요 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
