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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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 Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Where I come from, most fruit pickers are undocumented migrant workers. They're not on any legal contracts and definitely do not have visas, or perhaps even passports from their home countries. As a humanist, I believe the law should protect them, but in many cases it doesn't for fairly obvious reasons. They lack protections due to their illegal status.
We have legal status here.
Now, unless TheUrbanMyth took a boat to Korea, I'm not sure we are a good analogy to them. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| nukeday wrote: |
Where I come from, most fruit pickers are undocumented migrant workers. They're not on any legal contracts and definitely do not have visas, or perhaps even passports from their home countries. As a humanist, I believe the law should protect them, but in many cases it doesn't for fairly obvious reasons. They lack protections due to their illegal status.
We have legal status here.
Now, unless TheUrbanMyth took a boat to Korea, I'm not sure we are a good analogy to them. |
Where I come from, yuppies pay to pick apples with their kids, then get donuts and drive home to make apple pie with their spoils 
I agree with you completely, though. I just wanted to be a wiseass. |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think that this whole migrant worker analogy is irrelevant....Korean bosses are crappy to their Korean employees as well.
All I am saying is this.....regardless of who the employee is, what country they are from, what their level of education is, what their chosen career is, and so on and so forth.....in Korea, your direct supervisor is FAR more likely to be a *beep* to you just because they can, than a direct supervisor in our home countries. No, UrbanMyth, I don't have any links to statistics that support my claim.
I am not talking about worker systems and corporations and all that jazz. In Korea, you often find ajoshi bosses who flex their K-muscle just because they can.....and this has NOTHING to do with the employees being foreign. Ask the average Korean who has ever tried to get more than 3 days off at a time of their allotted vacation time? Ask Koreans how many people they personally know who have ever had a job that shorted them on pay. I guarantee that there is a higher percentage of the Korean populace that has been all-out ripped off by their employer than in North America, Europe, or Australasia. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| So, what happened to the OP? Did he get his vacation? Is he sipping Mai Thais on the beach right now? |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| So, what happened to the OP? Did he get his vacation? Is he sipping Mai Thais on the beach right now? |
I hope so. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| willteachforfood wrote: |
I think that this whole migrant worker analogy is irrelevant....Korean bosses are crappy to their Korean employees as well.
All I am saying is this.....regardless of who the employee is, what country they are from, what their level of education is, what their chosen career is, and so on and so forth.....in Korea, your direct supervisor is FAR more likely to be a *beep* to you just because they can, than a direct supervisor in our home countries. No, UrbanMyth, I don't have any links to statistics that support my claim.
I am not talking about worker systems and corporations and all that jazz. In Korea, you often find ajoshi bosses who flex their K-muscle just because they can.....and this has NOTHING to do with the employees being foreign. Ask the average Korean who has ever tried to get more than 3 days off at a time of their allotted vacation time? Ask Koreans how many people they personally know who have ever had a job that shorted them on pay. I guarantee that there is a higher percentage of the Korean populace that has been all-out ripped off by their employer than in North America, Europe, or Australasia. |
Not sure where the K-muscle is on my bosses body...hopefully he never shows it to me!
But you make a good point. I think a lot of times we forget that working conditions here are just different than back home. It is not a Koreans vs NETs thing. It is an Employer vs Employee thing. One large difference is that we are not used to being treated in this way...whereas our Korean coworkers are. Some of them complain about it, must of them just brood in silence, accepting their fate after being squashed down by conformist pressure. I'd much rather be a NET in Korea than a Korean hagwon teacher. Public school teachers get some sweet perks...but we are not licensed teachers. So we compare to Korean contract teachers. Of which, we definetly have the sweeter deal as well. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: |
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[quote="jrwhite82"]
| willteachforfood wrote: |
I think that this whole migrant worker analogy is irrelevant....Korean bosses are crappy to their Korean employees as well.
All I am saying is this.....regardless of who the employee is, what country they are from, what their level of education is, what their chosen career is, and so on and so forth.....in Korea, your direct supervisor is FAR more likely to be a *beep* to you just because they can, than a direct supervisor in our home countries. No, UrbanMyth, I don't have any links to statistics that support my claim.
I am not talking about worker systems and corporations and all that jazz. In Korea, you often find ajoshi bosses who flex their K-muscle just because they can.....and this has NOTHING to do with the employees being foreign. Ask the average Korean who has ever tried to get more than 3 days off at a time of their allotted vacation time? Ask Koreans how many people they personally know who have ever had a job that shorted them on pay. I guarantee that there is a higher percentage of the Korean populace that has been all-out ripped off by their employer than in North America, Europe, or Australasia. |
Not sure where the K-muscle is on my bosses body...hopefully he never shows it to me!
But you make a good point. I think a lot of times we forget that working conditions here are just different than back home. It is not a Koreans vs NETs thing. It is an Employer vs Employee thing. One large difference is that we are not used to being treated in this way...whereas our Korean coworkers are. Some of them complain about it, must of them just brood in silence, accepting their fate after being squashed down by conformist pressure. I'd much rather be a NET in Korea than a Korean hagwon teacher. Public school teachers get some sweet perks...but we are not licensed teachers. So we compare to Korean contract teachers. Of which, we definetly have the sweeter deal as well.[/quote]
Bolded part is right on target.
willteachforfood,
I think you need to work a few more western bosses.
It would be a real eye opener for you. While the tactics differ, they too "flex their muscle" and will do what they can to their employees. The fact they do so more indirectly is irrelevant, it still happens. I could provide a long list of examples if you wish, all based on people I know here in Canada who work for schools, companies and so on. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| shifty wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Korea was dirt poor a short 35 years ago. They have gone through a remarkable economic transformation in that short span of time.
This does not make one country worse than the other by the way. |
My personal feeling is that their old culture is strictly at odds with the nouveau riche frankenstein that is today.
Korea has always been xenophobic, impacting on their relations with foreign workers. Whereas the US is driven by supply and demand, Korea's wounded psyche and dysfunctional nationalism makes for a completely different dynamic. |
Interesting.
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Not remotely interesting. It's all old hat.
Unless you are being condescending. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| shifty wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| shifty wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Korea was dirt poor a short 35 years ago. They have gone through a remarkable economic transformation in that short span of time.
This does not make one country worse than the other by the way. |
My personal feeling is that their old culture is strictly at odds with the nouveau riche frankenstein that is today.
Korea has always been xenophobic, impacting on their relations with foreign workers. Whereas the US is driven by supply and demand, Korea's wounded psyche and dysfunctional nationalism makes for a completely different dynamic. |
Interesting.
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Not remotely interesting. It's all old hat.
Unless you are being condescending. |
Paranoid much?
I did find what you wrote interesting. It was an interesting comparison. I may not agree with it and I did provide a counter point which you conveniently did not include when you quoted me.
For accuracy's sake here is the FULL quote:
| Quote: |
Interesting.
I would say that both countries are driven by supply and demand when it comes to exploiting migrant laborers. Nationalism has very little to do with it, greed and economics are more likely culprits. |
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shifty
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
For accuracy's sake here is the FULL quote:
| Quote: |
Interesting.
I would say that both countries are driven by supply and demand when it comes to exploiting migrant laborers. Nationalism has very little to do with it, greed and economics are more likely culprits. |
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Well, thanks for that, though I'm not entirely sure why I should be thanking you.
I left it out b/c I thought it trite.
Please reread what you wrote; "I would say," and "very little to do with it," and "more likely" are all very airy fairy and not convincing to a paranoid like myself.
You've heard these old arguments a thousand times before and it does not become a Korean vet to be so unctuous and born yesterday. |
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TheresaTheresa
Joined: 24 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:30 am Post subject: Oh, snap! |
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[quote="shifty"]
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
For accuracy's sake here is the FULL quote:
| Quote: |
Interesting.
I would say that both countries are driven by supply and demand when it comes to exploiting migrant laborers. Nationalism has very little to do with it, greed and economics are more likely culprits. |
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Well, thanks for that, though I'm not entirely sure why I should be thanking you.
I left it out b/c I thought it trite.
Please reread what you wrote; "I would say," and "very little to do with it," and "more likely" are all very airy fairy and not convincing to a paranoid like myself.
You've heard these old arguments a thousand times before and it does not become a Korean vet to be so unctuous and born yesterday. [/quote]
Oh, snap! |
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willteachforfood
Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
willteachforfood,
I think you need to work a few more western bosses.
It would be a real eye opener for you. While the tactics differ, they too "flex their muscle" and will do what they can to their employees. The fact they do so more indirectly is irrelevant, it still happens. I could provide a long list of examples if you wish, all based on people I know here in Canada who work for schools, companies and so on. |
I have worked for a great number of Western bosses (well over 20 for sure). I was in the work force for 14 years before I came to Korea. I have also worked for Western bosses in other countries other than my own since leaving my home country. I have also spent years working in management, so I am very familiar with both sides of the coin.
I am not looking for examples of Western bosses who pulled crap on their employees. Clearly there are good bosses and bad bosses in every country. There are good schools/companies to work for, and bad ones....whether it be Canada, Korea, or Kazakhstan.
I am simply saying that it is far more prevalent in Korea that a boss will try to weasel his/her way out of paying what is owed to their employees. I am not saying it happens ALL THE TIME, I am saying that it is more prevalent. It is also more prevalent that a boss here will say "no" to your request simply to be an arse. No, not ALL Korean bosses will do this, and YES, there are plenty of Western bosses who do....but it is MORE likely to happen here.
In the case of the OP, the odds of facing negative ramifications from his boss when asking for a couple days off to go to a job interview are MUCH higher in Korea than if he were working at home. I think that you know this to be true but simply prefer to defend Korea at all costs instead of admitting that it is NOT the same here.
Again...I reiterate...I am not referring to how Korean bosses treat foreign employees, but how Korean bosses treat ALL of their employees. In general they treat their own employees worse than they treat us. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| willteachforfood wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
willteachforfood,
I think you need to work a few more western bosses.
It would be a real eye opener for you. While the tactics differ, they too "flex their muscle" and will do what they can to their employees. The fact they do so more indirectly is irrelevant, it still happens. I could provide a long list of examples if you wish, all based on people I know here in Canada who work for schools, companies and so on. |
I have worked for a great number of Western bosses (well over 20 for sure). I was in the work force for 14 years before I came to Korea. I have also worked for Western bosses in other countries other than my own since leaving my home country. I have also spent years working in management, so I am very familiar with both sides of the coin.
I am not looking for examples of Western bosses who pulled crap on their employees. Clearly there are good bosses and bad bosses in every country. There are good schools/companies to work for, and bad ones....whether it be Canada, Korea, or Kazakhstan.
I am simply saying that it is far more prevalent in Korea that a boss will try to weasel his/her way out of paying what is owed to their employees. I am not saying it happens ALL THE TIME, I am saying that it is more prevalent. It is also more prevalent that a boss here will say "no" to your request simply to be an arse. No, not ALL Korean bosses will do this, and YES, there are plenty of Western bosses who do....but it is MORE likely to happen here.
In the case of the OP, the odds of facing negative ramifications from his boss when asking for a couple days off to go to a job interview are MUCH higher in Korea than if he were working at home. I think that you know this to be true but simply prefer to defend Korea at all costs instead of admitting that it is NOT the same here.
Again...I reiterate...I am not referring to how Korean bosses treat foreign employees, but how Korean bosses treat ALL of their employees. In general they treat their own employees worse than they treat us. |
Great then you understand that your comment about Korean employers is just an opinion and should not be passed off as anything remotely close to a fact. 
Korean employers do employ a management style that is linked to their culture (shocking!). That can create tensions from a western-centric viewpoint.
Abusing your employees is wrong but the definition of abuse in the workplace does tend to differ from culture to culture and from country to country.
That can be quite the interesting debate or discussion anyway. I find that comparing the management styles and looking at how many misunderstandings occur in a culturally mixed workplace is an interesting thing. A lot of times westerners working in Korea see a Korean supervisor act and they assume its abuse or balk when in reality it is not considered abuse by most of the Korean staff (ex: asking staff to stay after work hours to complete some project).
Abuse along the lines of not paying your staff is different as that is undisputably wrong. Other issues are bathed in such a deep sea of nuance that it becomes hazardous to pass quick judgement.... |
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Milkman Dan
Joined: 10 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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First of all, I want to thank all of the (on-topic) posters for their opinions and insights. I actually learned a lot about Korean workplace etiquette and customs - Especially about saving face and "white lies".
Anyway, I thought I would stop by and update everyone on my decision.
I decided to decline the interview offer for JET, but for many other reasons unrelated to the moral/job concerns I was originally faced with. I decided that I'd get a CELTA and do some full-time language study before looking for another teaching job. If I got accepted for a position with JET, there would be a strong chance of me being nothing more than a human tape recorder. Certainly an easy job, but one that probably wouldn't help me improve my teaching abilities and experience.
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| jrwhite82 wrote: |
| So, what happened to the OP? Did he get his vacation? Is he sipping Mai Thais on the beach right now? |
I hope so. |
I guess those beach side Mai Thais will have to wait for another time. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Bummer.....
Good luck with your studies!  |
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