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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| Kepler wrote: |
| westerners were the first to recognize that slavery was wrong. |
Anyone care to confirm or refute this one? |
Depends on what he means. If he means his statement literally: that members of modern societies of European ethnicity were really the first ones to recognize that slavery was wrong, he's clearly incorrect. People have been arguing slavery was wrong for thousands of years. They weren't even the first to have a government begin trying to remove the institution of slavery. Emperor Wang Mang in China was trying to outlaw the slave trade around the time Christ was alive (an attempt that ended in failure, but an attempt by the ruler of the nation none the less).
If, on the other hand, he spoke a bit clumsily and actually meant that those western societies were the first to successfully shrug off the institution of slavery after having tasted its fruits, maybe. However, that's not because they were the first to have their ethically-inclined citizens recognize the abomination in slavery, but rather because they were the first societies who had access to economic models that allowed everyone else to go along with those ethically minded individuals while still living well. If there's something to pat the Europeans on the back about here, it's about their inventiveness leading to a viable alternative to slavery more than some sort of real ethics-driven sacrifice. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
Hate filled posts. You guys are so scared of black people.
Do you feel inadequate ? Too much porn make you feel small ?
Don't watch Blacks on Blondes, you'll lose your mind and end it all  |
Tone down the insecurity. If you think someone says something blatantly false, correct them and provide evidence that they are wrong. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Fat_Elvis wrote: |
| African-Americans were brought to the USA in chains as slaves and have suffered centuries of some of the worst kinds of racism. If there is a culture of crime, violence and welfare dependency in parts of the African-American community it is surely largely attributable to this. |
I think we far too readily dismiss the possibility that different peoples who evolved in different environments are more likely to be disposed towards different modes of life. |
Are even you falling back on the biological thesis, as well?
Statistics cannot provide any evidence of whether the disparities are hereditary or cultural, inherited or learned. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I would like to see breakdown of crime stats over time. I am betting that in 50's when most families had two parents crime was much lower, and then you would see a gradual increase till the Johnson's great society programs, when it would explode. I think you would also see a big increase around Reagan cutting great society programs. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Fat_Elvis wrote: |
| African-Americans were brought to the USA in chains as slaves and have suffered centuries of some of the worst kinds of racism. If there is a culture of crime, violence and welfare dependency in parts of the African-American community it is surely largely attributable to this. |
I think we far too readily dismiss the possibility that different peoples who evolved in different environments are more likely to be disposed towards different modes of life. |
Are even you falling back on the biological thesis, as well?
Statistics cannot provide any evidence of whether the disparities are hereditary or cultural, inherited or learned. |
Not falling back on it so much as being unwilling to dismiss it out of hand as an obvious non-factor. That's why I emphasized the word possibility. You're right that the statistics cannot really provide evidence of cause, but without understanding of cause, we can't properly interpret statistics, and emotionally-laden narratives of white guilt only help us achieve a sufficient understanding to actually work towards an effective solution if those narratives match up with reality. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:19 am Post subject: |
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http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/34138
^ an interesting discussion about minority crime, incarceration, the family and solutions.
The women are unable to maintain civil discourse. The lady on the left is a liberal creationist and the lady on the right a conservative law and order type. They are without common ground. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Not falling back on it so much as being unwilling to dismiss it out of hand as an obvious non-factor. That's why I emphasized the word possibility. You're right that the statistics cannot really provide evidence of cause, but without understanding of cause, we can't properly interpret statistics, and emotionally-laden narratives of white guilt only help us achieve a sufficient understanding to actually work towards an effective solution if those narratives match up with reality. |
Haha. Rarely have I heard such balony.
First of all, I can't believe a 'white' person who has lived in the West and has been educated even minimally here could vomit this ignorance so I believe most here are either Korean or Chinese (whose Western history would be different).
This is Black History Month, and you knobs still don't know a thing about the West  Shame. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
Haha. Rarely have I heard such balony. |
If you have solid, data-based evidence that demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that biology plays absolutely no role in behavior, present it and I'll be overjoyed to look it over. Otherwise, spare me the pathetic whining; no matter how much insecurity-driven invective you hurl at me, my position of agnosticism on this matter isn't going to change. I'm sorry that makes you feel bad about yourself.
| travel zen wrote: |
| This is Black History Month ... |
Not in Korea it's not. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Fat_Elvis wrote: |
| African-Americans were brought to the USA in chains as slaves and have suffered centuries of some of the worst kinds of racism. If there is a culture of crime, violence and welfare dependency in parts of the African-American community it is surely largely attributable to this. |
I think we far too readily dismiss the possibility that different peoples who evolved in different environments are more likely to be disposed towards different modes of life. |
Are even you falling back on the biological thesis, as well?
Statistics cannot provide any evidence of whether the disparities are hereditary or cultural, inherited or learned. |
Not falling back on it so much as being unwilling to dismiss it out of hand as an obvious non-factor. That's why I emphasized the word possibility. You're right that the statistics cannot really provide evidence of cause, but without understanding of cause, we can't properly interpret statistics, and emotionally-laden narratives of white guilt only help us achieve a sufficient understanding to actually work towards an effective solution if those narratives match up with reality. |
Well, Fox, if I give you a white guilt trip please call me on it. In the meantime, I'm going to presume the disparities are hereditary and learned, yes, because of the political implications. If that's political correctness, so be it. |
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travel zen
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Location: Good old Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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travel zen wrote:
This is Black History Month ...
Not in Korea it's not. |
There lies the ignorance.
I'm not going to return the feces you hurled buddy, but if you don't know that a human being here, is human being everywhere....then you are lost.
Covering yourself in 'titles' such agnostic or stoic is as meaningless as this thread. If you would have picked different races to vent your frustrations on, then I might have thought this less than BS, but you scared people always pick on black people in the USA...strange. Maybe that's where you were all gang raped by black men I lied about the feces ... |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think that biological differences *can* play a small role in behavior, but I think only inasmuch as they relate to diet. And I don't think diet has much to do with much day to day behavior, except for drinking culture.
It may have nudged societies in certain directions in regards to agriculture when people were first getting civilized, but that was too long ago to play a major role. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
| Quote: |
travel zen wrote:
This is Black History Month ...
Not in Korea it's not. |
There lies the ignorance. |
Korea not having black history month isn't ignorance, it's fact. Being here means I'm not surrounded by a society that demands I put up with your racial insecurity. You can either argue a rational case (which I'm happy to entertain, if you think you're up to the challenge) or be shrugged off.
| travel zen wrote: |
| but if you don't know that a human being here, is human being everywhere....then you are lost. |
Black history month has nothing to do with your status as a human being. Stop with the strawmans, no one here is dehumanizing you.
| travel zen wrote: |
| Covering yourself in 'titles' such agnostic or stoic is as meaningless as this thread. |
Do you know what agnostic means, travel zen?
| travel zen wrote: |
| If you would have picked different races to vent your frustrations on, then I might have thought this less than BS, but you scared people always pick on black people in the USA...strange. |
I don't know what's more wrong with this sentence, the fact that you're totally mischaracterizing my motivations for participating in this discussion, or the fact that you're implying that what you seem to consider to be racism is okay so long as it's not directed at your particular race. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| yes, because of the political implications. |
I don't blame you for being motivated by this, but I can't bring myself to be. I think this is a core disagreement between us; it's come up now not only with regards to this topic, but on topics like religion and public knowledge of government activity.
I feel like the best possible society is one where the average citizen has access to the truth (be it the truth about the topic discussed in this thread, the truth about what the government is doing in their name, or even the truth about the nature of the world), and is able to build their world views and values off of those truths. You seem to think that at times a good yet potentially false idea can be a superior foundation than the truth for such purposes. Am I misinterpretting your position? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| yes, because of the political implications. |
I don't blame you for being motivated by this, but I can't bring myself to be. I think this is a core disagreement between us; it's come up now not only with regards to this topic, but on topics like religion and public knowledge of government activity.
I feel like the best possible society is one where the average citizen has access to the truth (be it the truth about the topic discussed in this thread, the truth about what the government is doing in their name, or even the truth about the nature of the world), and is able to build their world views and values off of those truths. You seem to think that at times a good yet potentially false idea can be a superior foundation than the truth for such purposes. Am I misinterpretting your position? |
This is more like my position on religion, there's unlikely to be clear evidence one way or the other (well, in the case of the existence of God there will never be any evidence one way or the other). My position on diplomatic secrecy is different and founded on professional confidentiality grounds (diplomats are like doctors and lawyers).
I'm not advocating shutting off any inquiry or closing out any evidence. We're talking about conclusions. |
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Fat_Elvis
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| I think most biologists agree now that race is just a social construct anyway. |
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