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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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 Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| If you didn't want it to get personal, you shouldn't have started by insulting people's careers. |
There you go again convincing yourself that esl is a real career. I never intended to insult anyone. The OP was obviously distressed, I was just telling him to chill out a bit....losing your job in korea is not the end of the world. There is life beyond korea you know.
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| No, it's the truth as you see it. Big difference.. |
And vice versa.
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Why wouldn't it? I'm not a hagwon monkey and I don't usually teach English. |
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Why wouldn't they? I've worked as a teacher before I arrived in Korea. Why wouldn't I work as a teacher after I left Korea? |
I don't think 90% of the esl teachers in korea would appreciate you referring to them as hagwon monkeys. Who's doing the insulting here?
So if you were a teacher before you came to Korea, that means you're certified and if this is the case then yes most likely can go back home to work as a teacher again. If you didn't have any teaching experience before coming to Korea, do you think your esl teaching experience would be transferable back home?
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Either way, why would I care? Doesn't apply to me or anyone I work with. |
If you don't care, why are you so sensitive? |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| austrian123 wrote: |
Seoulnate and Patrickbusan....
I acknowledge that there are exceptions to the rule. However, have you considered many people are teaching or have taught in Korea? Hundreds of thousands? And of these hundreds of thousands, what percentage of them have been able to translate their work experience in Korea to meaningful jobs back home? Just because you know a handful of people who have been successful in making the transition, doesn't meant that it applies to all. Because generally speaking, esl experience isn't universally accepted as valid work experience back home. |
All we are saying is that it is not a universal conclusion that ESL is not accepted as valid work experience back home. the point was well made before: it can work for you, it can be recognized but it needs to be referenced.
As for the hundreds of thousands of teachers who worked in Korea, I am fairly certain a lot of them managed to get their experience in Korea recongnized. Some of course did not, but that is the same way many people fail to get their experiences recognized properly when they apply for work. A lot of people simply have no clue and possibly no desire how to build a career and what that requires in terms of job choices, accumulating references, improving your skills and qualification...
So basically if as a teacher you sit on your hands in Korea and stick to ding ding dang hakwon where you punch in and punch out, do the minimum and play bingo, well then that experience will indeed be worth next to nothing. If on the other hand you do more with your job, get it referenced, then it can benefit you back home in several ways.
Thats it for me. Take care  |
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that it's not a universal conclusion..but it's a widely accepted conclusion. As for the hundreds of thousands of teachers who worked in Korea, I am fairly certain MOST of them did not manage to get their experience in Korea recongnized.
Listen, whether people on this board like to hear it or not....I've met tons of E2 visa holders in Korea. And in their moment of least resistance, they all admit to me that they are 'lost and directionless'...not exactly the type of go getters who try to make a legitmate career out of teaching esl in korea. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Listen, whether people on this board like to hear it or not....I've met tons of E2 visa holders in Korea. And in their moment of least resistance, they all admit to me that they are 'lost and directionless'...not exactly the type of go getters who try to make a legitmate career out of teaching esl in korea. |
You just described the majority of people under 30 who enter the workforce in one field or another after graduating from university...  |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| austrian123 wrote: |
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that it's not a universal conclusion..but it's a widely accepted conclusion. As for the hundreds of thousands of teachers who worked in Korea, I am fairly certain MOST of them did not manage to get their experience in Korea recongnized.
Listen, whether people on this board like to hear it or not....I've met tons of E2 visa holders in Korea. And in their moment of least resistance, they all admit to me that they are 'lost and directionless'...not exactly the type of go getters who try to make a legitmate career out of teaching esl in korea. |
Hypocritical again. You suggest that we have no way to speak for the thousands here, but you have no problem presuming that you know their situations.
Plain and simple, if you can not get your work here recognized by an employer back home then it is YOUR FAULT not the job, field, employer or any of that.
If you really want a guide on "Korea Work Experience: How to use it back home", I will write it. Most of it is just common sense and work.
As per the question, "Why am I still here?"
I KNOW that the work here transfers for me when I go back home and start teaching again, and the states that I would prefer to teach in allow 5 years of transfered time from another state/country and I am still enjoying myself with a year or so left to go on that. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
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| Listen, whether people on this board like to hear it or not....I've met tons of E2 visa holders in Korea. And in their moment of least resistance, they all admit to me that they are 'lost and directionless'...not exactly the type of go getters who try to make a legitmate career out of teaching esl in korea. |
You just described the majority of people under 30 who enter the workforce in one field or another after graduating from university... |
How can you say something like that? I completely disagree. The majority of people who enter the work force upon graduating university are usually more focused and know for the most part what they want out of life.
That is why they're employed in their selected field and do not see the need to come to korea. When one is financially secure in one's field and making good coin with good benefits, why would anyone come to Korea...unless you don't have any other prospects. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hypocritical again. You suggest that we have no way to speak for the thousands here, but you have no problem presuming that you know their situations. |
I have no problem presuming because my conclusion is widely accepted.
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| Plain and simple, if you can not get your work here recognized by an employer back home then it is YOUR FAULT not the job, field, employer or any of that. |
I think you're taking this to personally. Sorry but ESL is not legitimate experience back in North America whether it's the fault of the individual or not.
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If you really want a guide on "Korea Work Experience: How to use it back home", I will write it. Most of it is just common sense and work.
As per the question, "Why am I still here?"
I KNOW that the work here transfers for me when I go back home and start teaching again, and the states that I would prefer to teach in allow 5 years of transfered time from another state/country and I am still enjoying myself with a year or so left to go on that. |
I've already stated that since you're certified back home that you would have no problems finding work when you return. I was just wondering why a real teacher like yourself would come and stay in korea. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| austrian123 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
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| Listen, whether people on this board like to hear it or not....I've met tons of E2 visa holders in Korea. And in their moment of least resistance, they all admit to me that they are 'lost and directionless'...not exactly the type of go getters who try to make a legitmate career out of teaching esl in korea. |
You just described the majority of people under 30 who enter the workforce in one field or another after graduating from university... |
How can you say something like that? I completely disagree. The majority of people who enter the work force upon graduating university are usually more focused and know for the most part what they want out of life.
That is why they're employed in their selected field and do not see the need to come to korea. When one is financially secure in one's field and making good coin with good benefits, why would anyone come to Korea...unless you don't have any other prospects. |
I am saying this based on experience as someone who worked on hiring committee, who interviewed people, who was also at times responsible for training new employees and who has run and managed his own consulting agency for the past 7 years.
The vast majority of new graduates have no clue as to what they want to do or how to get a career started and build on it. This in many ways is completely normal because they lack experience. Knowing what you want out of life and knowing what you want to do or how to do it are very different things by the way. Now again, if you wish to focus on education as a work field, the majority of FTs in Korea are inexperienced new grads. Many of them have no intention or training to be teachers and see the jpb as a chance to travel and earn some coin. Nothing wrong with this. That being said, that typical FT can still have his Korean experience recognized if he or she plays his cards right.
Private sector jobs that deal with international trade will actually favor people with international experience for example. You would need the relevant qualifications of course but that overseas experience can put you over other applicants with similar qualifications that have no experience abroad.
At the end of the day you are convinced of your position and thats fine. You can keep on believing that at no harm to others or yourself. However, in this thread a couple of people have presented you with their experiences (which you brushed aside are pretty much irrelevant or cases of exception). These experiences differ from your contention about how experience in Korea is valued.
As for Korean ESL, you really need to start spearating the newbies whp arrive fresh out of school with those teachers who make careers out of ESL. You are talking apples and organges here!
Finally, if someone is gainfully employed intheir field back home, the chance they move ANYWHERE to teach are pretty slim, but then again thats not the people we are talkign about is it? 
As for me, I was a certified public school teacher in Canada before coming to Korea. I left to get some different teaching experience and took a sabbatical (1 year). That sabbatical turned into a 10 year stay in Korea where I worked as a teacher, started a consulting firm, acquired another language, got married and started a family. All that work experience led, after a short 4 years for example to job offers in the private and public sector back home and abroad. My teaching experience would have been recognized in Canada as well and would have moved me up the payscale had I returned to teaching. Then in 2008 I got an offer I could not turn down from public sector Canada. That job was to be based in Seoul but events conspired to change that. I was then transfered to Canada for a similar job.
How did I get that job and the offers before it? Based on my experience abroad thats how.
I am far from alone in this. I know many FTs who came to Korea and did just as well or even better. On this very board you have people who became tenure track professors, who run their own companies, who founded and run their own schools. Many arrived as teachers and changed along the way.
You can find just as many people who used their teaching experience in Korea to get jobs back home.
Of course you can also find people who came to Korea for a gig, a few bucks and a chance to travel and who returned home 2-3 years later with a gaping hole in their resume that limited itself to "I worked 3 years for Playland Hakwon" without any references to back it up. Combined with a BA in basket weaving this of course leads to extremely limited options.
Then again...how well would Mr Basket Weaving have done had he not gone to Korea to teach? How much better off would he have been back home? |
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bobrocket
Joined: 26 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:04 am Post subject: |
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Hmmmmmm, would it be safe to say that 90% of the people having problems in Korea are from the US? or is it just that most of "the foreigners" in Korea are from the US because of the recession.
Had a good disagreement about the increase of working holidays with a colleague, funny how after a few minutes of looking through this site he asked me if it was an American site.
Got a new degree, can't join the army (or don't want to see the middle east), what know, can't get a job so lets go to Asia where everyone wants to learn English.
It's probably not the right thread but since it's so way off topic anyway, give it a go, make some cash, the way your going, it'll be part of china china in a few years anyway, so bi%$h and moan about everything and then let us know how the chinese is coming along.....oh no anti US, must be a terriost, please don't hurt me
............Gonna get flamed for this one
Can I blame it on the soju????????????? |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| I wonder how many (what percentage) of westerners that go to Korea actually learn 'the game' and prosper. Just a thought in the middle of reading this very interesting thread. Carry on.. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: |
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I am saying this based on experience as someone who worked on hiring committee, who interviewed people, who was also at times responsible for training new employees and who has run and managed his own consulting agency for the past 7 years.
The vast majority of new graduates have no clue as to what they want to do or how to get a career started and build on it. This in many ways is completely normal because they lack experience. Knowing what you want out of life and knowing what you want to do or how to do it are very different things by the way. Now again, if you wish to focus on education as a work field, the majority of FTs in Korea are inexperienced new grads. Many of them have no intention or training to be teachers and see the jpb as a chance to travel and earn some coin. Nothing wrong with this. That being said, that typical FT can still have his Korean experience recognized if he or she plays his cards right. |
You may be correct, but based on your analysis I can only conclude that 100 percent of the new grads that you've dealt with must have been undergrad Arts majors. I highly doubt any new grads who have graduated in specialized fields such as technology, medicine, nursing, law,
finance etc would have walked through the doors of your consulting agency. I'm not saying that all Arts majors are directionless and clueless about what they want to do in life, but by in large a Bachelor of Arts is pretty useless unless you decide to proced onto graduate studies. IMO, if one decides to graduate with a regular BA and is unable to follow through with a successful career at home, you deserve to be where you are for not having foresight. Now I wonder, what percentage of esl teachers in Korea have graduated with a regular BA...I'd say over 95 percent. Remember, I'm an esl teacher in Korea as well, so I'm not trying to insult anyone... just telling as it is. I majored in computer science and I always knew what I wanted to do in life. I was always focused and at the peak of my career I earned six figures. Then the recession hit and I was looking at 50% pay cut...so I said screw it and moved to Korea with my spouse. Could I have still been paid more if I stayed and worked corporate in Canada? Yup, but I was willing to give it up because I built a large nest egg which I completely invested into silver. I know silver will make me a millionaire, so I wanted to do something mindless like teaching esl until my silver hits 400 an ounce...now that's foresight.
The typical FT in Korea can have his experience acknowledged back home only under the following conditions:
1) The FT is a credited teacher who graduated from teacher's college back home
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2) The FT already has teaching experience back home
or
2) The FT has some professional experience dealing in international business and somehow makes the transition from the esl industry in Korea to work for a multinational company in Korea
HOW MANY FT IN KOREA MEET THE ABOVE CONDITIONS????
With all due respect, It sounds like you're defending the esl teachers and the esl industry in Korea more than anything else.
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| Private sector jobs that deal with international trade will actually favor people with international experience for example. You would need the relevant qualifications of course but that overseas experience can put you over other applicants with similar qualifications that have no experience abroad. |
Again, how many esl teachers make the transition from teaching to working for a multinational company in KOrea? In case you didn't know, ESL teachers are looked down upon in Korea. Unless you're really special, no Korean company will hire an esl teacher...unless that teacher is a gyopo who can speak passable korean.
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| At the end of the day you are convinced of your position and thats fine. You can keep on believing that at no harm to others or yourself. However, in this thread a couple of people have presented you with their experiences (which you brushed aside are pretty much irrelevant or cases of exception). These experiences differ from your contention about how experience in Korea is valued. |
I brushed it aside because these people were insinuating that for the majority of esl teachers that their experience can be valued at home.
I'm not saying it's not possible..in fact it is possible for the MINORITY who are already accredited teacers, but for most it's just fantasy.
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| As for Korean ESL, you really need to start spearating the newbies whp arrive fresh out of school with those teachers who make careers out of ESL. You are talking apples and organges here! |
And what is the percentage of newbies compared to real teachers who come to Korea to make a career out of esl? Probably 95 to 5.
Also I wonder, why would anyone want to come to Korea to establish a teaching career when they can do it at home? I know the answer...do you?
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| Finally, if someone is gainfully employed intheir field back home, the chance they move ANYWHERE to teach are pretty slim, but then again thats not the people we are talkign about is it? |
Right on, but you're forgetting that the majority of people who come to Korea tend to be a certain type who couldn't make the cut back home and either due to the lack of ability or laziness can't or won't make anything of themselves beyond esl in Korea. So when these people return home and can't find a job, it's because they were unemployable at home in the first place. I think this is a HUGE contributing factor to the fact that it is widely accepted that esl is not accepted as real experience back home. How many E2 visa holder do you know of who return to home only to come back to teach esl in Korea. Why is this the case?
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| As for me, I was a certified public school teacher in Canada before coming to Korea. I left to get some different teaching experience and took a sabbatical (1 year). That sabbatical turned into a 10 year stay in Korea where I worked as a teacher, started a consulting firm, acquired another language, got married and started a family. All that work experience led, after a short 4 years for example to job offers in the private and public sector back home and abroad. My teaching experience would have been recognized in Canada as well and would have moved me up the payscale had I returned to teaching. Then in 2008 I got an offer I could not turn down from public sector Canada. That job was to be based in Seoul but events conspired to change that. I was then transfered to Canada for a similar job. |
Glad to hear that you did well for yourself. Sound like the both of us are very successful people who knew what they wanted in life and achieved it. Doesn't mean that the majority of esl teacher are like us. We;re in the minority.
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How did I get that job and the offers before it? Based on my experience abroad thats how.
I am far from alone in this. I know many FTs who came to Korea and did just as well or even better. On this very board you have people who became tenure track professors, who run their own companies, who founded and run their own schools. Many arrived as teachers and changed along the way.
You can find just as many people who used their teaching experience in Korea to get jobs back home. |
I've already acknowledged that you did well and that you were able to maximize your time in Korea. But before you start telling me that MANY people were able to replicate your success, you need to give me numbers of successul people in relation to the total number of people who have taught and who are teachng in Korea.
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| Of course you can also find people who came to Korea for a gig, a few bucks and a chance to travel and who returned home 2-3 years later with a gaping hole in their resume that limited itself to "I worked 3 years for Playland Hakwon" without any references to back it up. Combined with a BA in basket weaving this of course leads to extremely limited options. |
I'd say the majority.
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| Then again...how well would Mr Basket Weaving have done had he not gone to Korea to teach? How much better off would he have been back home? |
Korea is a salvation for those who are unemployable back home. |
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allovertheplace
Joined: 02 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Many of the Long Timers I've met have been some of the most pompous, self righteous, and arrogant individuals I have ever met.
Getting called a drunk newbie for 2 years while watching FT's walk around with there 'pretty' korean girlfriends in toe, was and is one of the most ridiculous experiences of my life.
Fine, enjoy the life, enjoy the wife...ok. But disregarding and demeaning someone for doing the SAME EXACT THING as you did is predicated on something. I also met some great long timers...ones that told you places to go, people to meet, stuff to do on the weekend. I understand the desire to not have the same conversations over and over but the pretention is unbelievable.
The entire career vs. non career debate is stupid as well. Nobody cares how your qualify your position...be happy or be miserable. What you call your job or career shouldn't matter. But as per using Korea to get ahead...very slippery slope. Mention Korea and teach in the same sentence and you get some of the strangest glances. Everyone knows what you did regardless of what you actually did. 1,2,3 years if ok as an 'experience living abroad, learning a language, embracing a cultures' is fine. |
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austrian123
Joined: 15 Oct 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| allovertheplace wrote: |
Many of the Long Timers I've met have been some of the most pompous, self righteous, and arrogant individuals I have ever met.
Getting called a drunk newbie for 2 years while watching FT's walk around with there 'pretty' korean girlfriends in toe, was and is one of the most ridiculous experiences of my life. |
Right on.
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| But as per using Korea to get ahead...very slippery slope. Mention Korea and teach in the same sentence and you get some of the strangest glances. Everyone knows what you did regardless of what you actually did. 1,2,3 years if ok as an 'experience living abroad, learning a language, embracing a cultures' is fine. |
Right on.
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Sigh....
Oh well, this may have been a futile attempt at debate anyway.
So, lets cut this short: I was a long timer and all I said here should be reduced to arrogance.
That works best on Daves.
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legrande
Joined: 23 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| After the means of production was wrested away from family enterprises with the rise of the factory and corporation, a lot of money was invested by people like JP Morgan, Rockefeller, and Carnegie into education research from about the beginning of the 20th century to ensure that we (who have lost our independant means of survival and must farm our labor out for a wage, compelled to do a nice song and dance for the privilege to prop up the higher-ups) are brought up to view each other (and are threrefore divided) as competitors. Looks like it worked. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| If you only knew how hard it is to actually blacklist anyone at all. |
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