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The Libyan War
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wintermute

Joined: 01 Oct 2007

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject:

Butterfly wrote:

Well sure, wouldn't you be pissed off if your president filled his Swiss Bank accounts with the proceeds of natural resources from *your* country, while you and your countrymen eked out a living selling Chinese watches and cellphones?

How would they feel if the end result of all that hard fighting was simply that someone else was helping themselves to their country's wealth? Betrayed?

How do US and UK citizens feel about the fact that the Federal Reserve and .. Band of England (?) are private for-profit banks sucking wealth out of their respective at a rate far greater than one despot could hope to match. Pissed off? They should be!

Shouldn't we consider that until we get cured of the parasites running our financial systems, whenever we try to spread democracy, we are also transmitting a debilitating, incurable disease? Imposing a crushing burden of debt that they can never be free of?

I'm not advocating any change of action - just an increase of awareness for all concerned.

Space Bar

Joined: 20 Oct 2010

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

There is entirely too much common sense and not anywhere near enough free associating about secret groups with nefarious intent in that for me to pay it any serious attention.

wintermute wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

Now, now, how could you possibly think there are nefarious people behind the scenes attempting to manipulate events to their benefit? Don't you know that all you need is love and everyone is wonderful so stop bringing everyone down with your negative, depressing thoughts.

Instead, please think and post about raindrops on roses, whiskers on kittens, teddy bears, puppy dogs, and apple pie.

It's such a wonderful day, isn't it? Smile! Smile

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject:

wintermute wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

I'm in agreement with you about almost everything you have said except that bankers don't make members of my family disappear. I don't think it is anything like a perfect world, and everyone has some kind of agenda, agreed. Nobody knows how it will play out in Libya, and we can hope that things move in a democratic fashion, and try to facilitate that (as it seems to be what everyone there wants), but that is down to destiny. I'm just glad we didn't sit back and watch a massacre. Six months ago, if someone had told me that people would be waving America flags in Benghazi I'd have said they were nuts. We did the right thing, for once.

The Bank of England was nationalized in 1946 and remains a Government owned company.

wintermute

Joined: 01 Oct 2007

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:06 am Post subject:

Butterfly wrote:

wintermute wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

I really, sincerely hope it works out for the Libyan people.

I also hope I'm being too cynical, but when it comes to the international bankers, cynicism is the new optimism; the reality is usually worse.

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:26 am Post subject:

wintermute wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

You're not the only participant of this thread who holds this opinion, but you've expressed it the most openly.

I think you've given some good grounds for suspicion against campaigning for democracy. But the United States and the West isn't exactly campaigning here, its providing limited, reluctant, and slightly belated assistance to an indigenous popular movement.

And yes, we have to figure out in the West how to deal with the problem of banksterism. But, that isn't much a defense of Qaddaffi's raw tyranny.

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:59 am Post subject:

On the subject of Agendas:

China's Interest in Ghaddaffi

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/04/201141195046788263.html

Quote:

Only three days before UN Resolution 1973 was voted on, Gaddafi met with the ambassadors of BRICS members China, Russia and India, and told them, according to the JANA news agency: "We are ready to bring Chinese and Indian companies to replace Western ones." That may go a long way to explain the BRICS abstentions.

It would be tempting to see the Beijing leadership merrily watching Washington walk into another open-ended quagmire in a Muslim nation � part of a Chinese grand strategy of letting the US be distracted in peripheral Muslim countries in the arc from northern Africa to Central Asia.

Well, it is slightly more complicated than that.

Eddy24

Joined: 13 Nov 2010

Posted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject:

wintermute wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

wintermute wrote:

Butterfly wrote:

How could anyone not hope it works out for the Libyan people?

We went into Libya as it is an oil-producing nation. Plus politically it's easy to whip enough pro-war fervour if an Arab nation is involved.

I mean there has been actual full-blown genocide e.g. Rwanda in the 90's where literally hundreds of thousands were killed. But the west did sweet F***-all to help them. Gaddafi is a horrible man but what he had does is insignificant in comparison to this. The west had been scratching his back before the war in order to keep the oil taps flowing, and now suddenly he's evil in our eyes again... ridiculous.

Space Bar

Joined: 20 Oct 2010

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:22 am Post subject:

Kuros wrote:

I think you've given some good grounds for suspicion against campaigning for democracy. But the United States and the West isn't exactly campaigning here, its providing limited, reluctant, and slightly belated assistance to an indigenous popular movement.

Al-Qaeda??? Shocked

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:22 am Post subject:

The op-ed piece by Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy has changed the war aim. Now it is policy to see Qaddafi go. One report says we are looking for an African country for him to retire to. With increased attention to cluster bombs in Misurata, it feels like that may be used as the reason to step up 'humanitarian aid' as a way of removing the colonel.

Butterfly

Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: Kuwait

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:34 am Post subject:

Eddy24 wrote:

I mean there has been actual full-blown genocide e.g. Rwanda in the 90's where literally hundreds of thousands were killed. But the west did sweet F***-all to help them. Gaddafi is a horrible man but what he had does is insignificant in comparison to this. The west had been scratching his back before the war in order to keep the oil taps flowing, and now suddenly he's evil in our eyes again... ridiculous.

Not sure what you're saying; we are doing the right thing by intervening or not?

To be honest, when the EU engaged Ghaddaffi before, compensation was secured for the relatives of victims of the Locherbie bomb, and a stop to the nuclear weapons programme was secured. Everyone has always known he's evil, but what we had no idea about was whether the Libyan people wanted him as their leader or not. Now we of course know that Libyan people don't want him, as they are rising up. And we're helping them, is that bad?

I don't think there is anyone who doesn't regret Rwanda. Bill Clinton say it is his greatest regret. We acted too slowly, had no strategy, fumbled and a million people were dead. We can learn by our mistakes can't we?

The oil argument is facile. Again, for those getting his oil, it would have been much easier to turn a blind eye to genocide in order to keep things profitable. It was decided not to do that. I think that was good, don't you?

Space Bar

Joined: 20 Oct 2010

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:43 am Post subject:

Kucinich: Libyan war is an impeachable offense The UK and France had planned war games involving the attack upon Libya just days before the actual attack! Watch Kucinich explain.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:53 am Post subject:

^

Space Bar

Joined: 20 Oct 2010

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:53 am Post subject:

Pravda means "truth." Is this true?

Pravda wrote:

It just so happens that the United Nations Human Rights Council was scheduled to take another important vote. What was that vote?

The Council was about to vote on a report that affirmed and praised Libya and Colonel Ghaddafi for THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD. The report said that the Ghaddafi government protected "not only political rights, but also economic, educational, social and cultural rights," and praised it for the nation's treatment of religious minorities, and the "human rights training" received by security forces.

It was to be approved at a vote later this month. Did something suddenly happen over night? If you believe it did, I have a bridge to sell you.

No less than 46 delegations to the controversial Human Rights Council made positive comments, with rare criticism from, who else, the United States.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:53 am Post subject:

Butterfly wrote:

I don't think there is anyone who doesn't regret Rwanda. Bill Clinton say it is his greatest regret. We acted too slowly, had no strategy, fumbled and a million people were dead. We can learn by our mistakes can't we?

Slick Willie doesn't regret a thing. He's just a politician, and a particularly slimy and mendacious one that. Talk is the cheapest thing there is.

Nations should never intervene in the affairs of other nations. All government wars are evil. If Americans or citizens of other countries wanted to volunteer to go and fight against genocide, then that's fine. Otherwise neutrality among nations is always the best policy.

Space Bar

Joined: 20 Oct 2010

Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:57 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

You may want to take a history course and study the Constitution, specifically what is necessary to send troops into war and what constitutes an impeachable offense.

BTW, do you realize you are rolling your eyes at Kucinich, a Democrat?

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