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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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 Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Look at the numbers posted. You cherry picked the top limit of the range he suggested and then proceeded to argue as if that was the only number put out there. Blatantly disingenuous. |
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Highwayman
Joined: 22 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever.
1) The market is flooded with BA+TESOL folks (because those are minimum requirements).
2) Very few employers have ever heard of more advanced qualifications (e.g. DELTA or LTCL Dip. TESOL) so they don't pay for them.
3) Universities insist on a related MA (e.g. TESOL, applied linguistics) but don't pay that much over the odds for them.
4) There is a flood of qualified applicants for university jobs paying sub-par salaries but with good holidays.
5) The doctorate-level jobs in TESOL advertised here are few and far between and pay peanuts in comparison with the cost (incl. opportunity cost) of the qualification.
The verdict: Korea's an OK place to save a grand a month when you're through with college, say to pay down some loans, but there's not much way to make a career of it or make a good living (salary: 5 million). |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| jeremysums wrote: |
Most people say they tend to hire blonds.
| World Traveler wrote: |
| ewlandon wrote: |
| my boss did say he hires people based on their looks and thats why he didnt interview me. |
Wtf, he openly admitted it? Shameful. |
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Hi~ everyone.
My name is tony.
I'm looking for a librian in the library.
Nationality : Foreigner
sex : F ( special treatment with yellow hair)
Work place : library in Gyeonggi-do
Work to do : librarian(give and take book) very easy and sometimes say hi~ with smiling. ^^ |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
^
Look at the numbers posted. You cherry picked the top limit of the range he suggested and then proceeded to argue as if that was the only number put out there. Blatantly disingenuous. |
I picked the top limit to show clearly why it was a silly statement to make.
But fine let's pick the middle limit. Bottom limit is $3000 and top end is 10,000= 13000/2=6500. So there you go, I'm not picking extremes I'm picking a number smack dab in the middle of his range.
Salary-6500*13=$84,500.. a salary range comparable with experienced qualified teachers/principals of long service back home. To argue that someone with a B.A and a few years of experience (to describe the typical teacher on this board) deserves the same salary displays a clearly over-inflated sense of self-worth...ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE JOB MARKET IS FLOODED WITH THOSE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.
Heck most teachers back home don't earn that much.
http://www.nucleuslearning.com/node/3158
As we can see only Calgary teachers earn (a little more) Toronto teachers are close and the rest lag behind. And that is for a teacher with eight years experience and a teaching degree.
And that's just taking the middle numbers from his scale. And it is NOT including the cost of the hotels and flights he suggested. Include those and we earn way more than teachers back home even earning at the middle level of his scale.
I would suggest that the bottom level of his scale be the top. 3000*13=$39000. Include free housing and flights and we are closer to 50 thousand then 40 thousand a year ...which is still a decent salary considering that the average American salary is around 43 grand a year.
http://www.ehow.com/info_7746957_average-annual-salary-america.html |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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The average American does not have a college degree, to say nothing of a specialized degree in a professional field, so you're still cherry picking. The median income of bachelor's degree holder is over 1000 a week, putting that at $52,000. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
The average American does not have a college degree, to say nothing of a specialized degree in a professional field, so you're still cherry picking. The median income of bachelor's degree holder is over 1000 a week, putting that at $52,000. |
No. Choosing only those who have a college degree is cherry picking. Picking the AVERAGE is the very opposite of "cherry picking".
| Quote: |
| Cherry picking has a few different definitions, but it is most often thought of as the process of selecting a small amount of information or data to attempt to prove a point, while ignoring contradicting information. |
And that is what you are doing, picking a small select group while ignoring the average which is a much bigger group.
Plus I see no information about that $52000 a year claim.
It varies widely according to experience and type of job
http://www.ehow.com/info_8441037_basic-salary-bachelors-degree-holder.html
Elementary school teachers earn a median salary of around 43 thousand a year
while high school teachers earn a median of roughly 46,000
Let's stick to teachers here because that is comparing apples to apples.
These people have degrees too.
This is still a far cry from what the above poster was suggesting WE get, even if we discount the upper figure and stick to a middle range.
Even if we stick to the LOWEST figure he mentioned we would still come out ahead of the 43-46 figure. Remember he included flights and hotels as well as salary.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Menino80 wrote: |
The average American does not have a college degree, to say nothing of a specialized degree in a professional field, so you're still cherry picking. The median income of bachelor's degree holder is over 1000 a week, putting that at $52,000. |
No. Choosing only those who have a college degree is cherry picking. Picking the AVERAGE is the very opposite of "cherry picking".
| Quote: |
| Cherry picking has a few different definitions, but it is most often thought of as the process of selecting a small amount of information or data to attempt to prove a point, while ignoring contradicting information. |
And that is what you are doing, picking a small select group while ignoring the average which is a much bigger group. |
The average does not apply in a discussion about teachers and their salaries. They hold college degrees. This should be quite obvious. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Menino80 wrote: |
The average American does not have a college degree, to say nothing of a specialized degree in a professional field, so you're still cherry picking. The median income of bachelor's degree holder is over 1000 a week, putting that at $52,000. |
No. Choosing only those who have a college degree is cherry picking. Picking the AVERAGE is the very opposite of "cherry picking".
| Quote: |
| Cherry picking has a few different definitions, but it is most often thought of as the process of selecting a small amount of information or data to attempt to prove a point, while ignoring contradicting information. |
And that is what you are doing, picking a small select group while ignoring the average which is a much bigger group. |
The average does not apply in a discussion about teachers and their salaries. They hold college degrees. This should be quite obvious. |
Right then here are teachers in America also degree holders.
http://www.ehow.com/info_8441037_basic-salary-bachelors-degree-holder.html
Elementary school teachers earn a median salary of around 43 thousand a year
while high school teachers earn a median of roughly 46,000
Let's stick to teachers here because that is comparing apples to apples.
These people have degrees too.
This is still a far cry from what the above poster was suggesting WE get, even if we discount the upper figure and stick to a middle range.
Even if we stick to the LOWEST figure he mentioned we would still come out ahead of the 43-46 figure. Remember he included flights and hotels as well as salary. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Ah, the arrogance. I'm a real teacher and you're nobody... Ho hum. Met many a certified teacher that couldn't adapt to life in Korea. Couldn't cut it in the Korean classroom. How about them apples? |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| I find it really hard to believe the average wage for a teacher in the US is only 43-46k. That's a starting wage in the lowest paying provinces in Canada, never-mind the 70% pension at the end of the tunnel (pro-rated) plus Canada pension if it still exists. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Ah, the arrogance. I'm a real teacher and you're nobody... Ho hum. Met many a certified teacher that couldn't adapt to life in Korea. Couldn't cut it in the Korean classroom. How about them apples? |
That does happen. No debate there.
Still, the odds are that a certified teacher who has studied and applied classroom management skills, pedagogy, curriculum development (planning lessons) and other related skills will stand a better chance of dealing effectively with the challenges of a classroom (Korean or other).
Note the use of "odds". I would further say that if I was hiring teachers, I would choose the certified educators most of the time, again, playing the odds here, if they showed themselves to be sane of course. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
| I find it really hard to believe the average wage for a teacher in the US is only 43-46k. That's a starting wage in the lowest paying provinces in Canada, never-mind the 70% pension at the end of the tunnel (pro-rated) plus Canada pension if it still exists. |
Starting pay for PS teachers in Canada varies from Province to Province and then varies within each province.Check this out if you want more info:
http://www.ctf-fce.ca/tic/Default.aspx?sid=625892
Bascially: Depending on the jurisdiction, an entry level salary can range from $36,305 to $58,980 annually, while the maximum salary level can range from $53,545 to $83,158 annually
So the "average" starting pay is 47K BEFORE taxes and benefit deductions. You do get summers off but the flip side is that you work a heck of a lot more than an average Korean teaching job in terms of hours put in at work and at home (grading, planning). Your level of responsiblity is also far higher as you have to deal with parents, teach provincial curriculum, grade, prepare students for provincial testing, apply discipline, participate in extra-curricular actitivies at school....
Benefits are there but you do PAY for them through high deductions on your pay. You also have to deal with high Canadian income taxes in numerous provinces.
None of these jobs provide accomodations either.
So for entry-level jobs, the pay for canadian PS teachers is higher but then so are the requirements in terms of education. The deductions are heavier as well but the benefits (long term) are better.
Korea positions may offer lower starting pay but demand far less in terms of qualifications and deduct far less from the pay. The benefits are not as good but typically include nearly free accomodation. That once again cannot be overlooked because it is a HUGE benefit in terms of savings. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Starting pay for PS teachers in Canada varies from Province to Province and then varies within each province.Check this out if you want more info:
http://www.ctf-fce.ca/tic/Default.aspx?sid=625892
Bascially: Depending on the jurisdiction, an entry level salary can range from $36,305 to $58,980 annually, while the maximum salary level can range from $53,545 to $83,158 annually |
This number has to be skewed. I live in a have-not province and the starting salary for a teacher is 43K. A starting teacher starts at a level 5 position though, with only specialists in very specialized shortage areas (e.g. carpentry teacher) hired for the first four levels.
A teacher with a master's degree and 10 years experience makes closer to the higher end of that pay-scale. The Masters degree is paid for as well. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Starting pay for PS teachers in Canada varies from Province to Province and then varies within each province.Check this out if you want more info:
http://www.ctf-fce.ca/tic/Default.aspx?sid=625892
Bascially: Depending on the jurisdiction, an entry level salary can range from $36,305 to $58,980 annually, while the maximum salary level can range from $53,545 to $83,158 annually |
This number has to be skewed. I live in a have-not province and the starting salary for a teacher is 43K. A starting teacher starts at a level 5 position though, with only specialists in very specialized shortage areas (e.g. carpentry teacher) hired for the first four levels.
A teacher with a master's degree and 10 years experience makes closer to the higher end of that pay-scale. The Masters degree is paid for as well. |
True as I said those were starting salaries with basic BA+Certification.
The OP was comparing average starting salaries I think (Korea and other starting teachers) hence my post.
If you wish to discuss long term, then theb game changes somewhat but the conditions you outline means a person with experience, a graduate degree and a permanent position.
The true comparison for the OP should have been between contractual language teachers in Korea and Canada/US....
You want to compare fully qualified and certified Teachers who work in Public schools then compare them with those people teaching in Korea at International schools and who have qualifications and experience.
The comparison as it evolved in here is faulty and tends to do what these things do on Daves: make one side of things look overly good and minimizing the other side. For example, in this thread (not you) some people refuse to include accomodation into the comparison for pay and benefits when that is a HUGE benefit. Income taxes also come into play.
The flip side that is often ignored when people idealize Teaching jobs back home is the far, far heavier workload and level of responsibility teachers have in PS schools vice a Hakwon teacher or a PS Assistant teacher in Korea. In fact, the two do not actually compare well at all. I think a lot of the people who engage in these comparisons have never actually worked as full time teachers at a public school back home and therefore base their comparison on a few articles they read or something they heard.
The reality for those who did work in PS back home is slightly different. It is a good job but it is FAR more demanding and stressfull than most ESL jobs in Korea.
So, for accuracy, people should compare starting ESL jobs (pay, benefits...) in Korea with say an average job at a language school here in Canada or the US (Berlitz type institute). That would open a lot of eyes. |
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