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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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It's true.
{Paragraphs 9 through 13 of that article}
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On Monday, three Seoul National University (SNU) students created a memorial altar inside the school to pay respect to Kim, but it was shortly removed by school officials, the school said.
Last week, one of the students, identified as Park, 22, proposed the setup of the altar in front of the student council building �to show our collective wish for peace on the Korean Peninsula and promote inter-Korean reconciliation.�
Most SNU students and graduates reacted negatively.
�We used to set up altars to honor those who sacrificed themselves for the country�s democracy. Was Kim a democratic fighter? He was just a terrorist who killed a number of Korean people,� said a message posted on the school�s website.
Some students also vowed to destroy the altar if it is set up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Since when did the Korea Times start having sex ads everywhere? Good grief its worse than my junk mail inbox.... |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| NohopeSeriously wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| Hey NoHopeSeriously, so do you also support the gulags in North Korea that house around 200,000 political prisoners who live in inhumane conditions? |
Perhaps I do.  Never forget that USA also imprisons too many American citizens and foreigners under the abuse of FBI and the US military.
Here's what I think about the world:
USA = South Korea right now = bad socialist dictatorship
China = Singapore = Canada (another informal Chinese colony) = North Korea = decent socialist dictatorship
Obama = reincarnation of Joseph Stalin
You know, people in general should think beyond the conventional democracy. |
Your education has failed you. |
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silkhighway
Joined: 24 Oct 2010
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I think this is relevant to this discussion: Andrei Lankov suggests that the economy in North Korea has drastically improved since the 90s to the point where starvation is actually rare now if it happens at all. He also suggests that it makes it more likely that drastic change will happen in North Korea, not less. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
I have no idea if this is true but I heard that some students attending Seoul National University have decided to erect a memorial statue of Kim Jong Il.  |
Just a few students, mind you, and don't forget, attending university can seriously warp minds.
One of the best sayings I've heard is: If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 40 and STILL a liberal, you have no brain. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
| catman wrote: |
| I have no idea if this is true but I heard that some students attending Seoul National University have decided to erect a memorial statue of Kim Jong Il. |
Just a few students, mind you, and don't forget, attending university can seriously warp minds.
One of the best sayings I've heard is: If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 40 and STILL a liberal, you have no brain. |
Excellent way to overgeneralize and paint people with a very broad brush. Maybe if we all buy into these type of stereotypes the world would be a better place
Imagine, if all Koreans viewed foreigners as degenerate scum...all Taliban viewed all westerners as the devil...all westerners viewed all Muslims as crazed terrorists...yep, that sure would be great...
If that is one of the best sayings you've ever heard...well, best of luck to ya, kid. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
| I don't think you could call the 1958-59 events noted above as democratic in any relative sense of the word. |
Yes Rhee was an autocratic president by the standards of today.
But he was still the first elected ruler Korea ever had. A giant leap forward.
And those years you mention still saw significant steps towards democracy. In 1958 South Korea held Parliamentary elections: voter turnout was 87%. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| I don't think you could call the 1958-59 events noted above as democratic in any relative sense of the word. |
Yes Rhee was an autocratic president by the standards of today.
But he was still the first elected ruler Korea ever had. A giant leap forward.
And those years you mention still saw significant steps towards democracy. In 1958 South Korea held Parliamentary elections: voter turnout was 87%. |
Yes, he was technically elected. He was also a guy the US government flew in from the states and placed front and center, while dissenters who felt they weren't really given much of a choice were labeled "commie" and thrown into jail, or worse.
Reports of ballot stuffing and enforced voting (company employees told to vote for Rhee or expect to be cut loose) were rampant...this all again leading up to Rhee's disgraceful exit from South Korea, after he had framed and executed political rivals...these type of actions were considered pretty atrocious back then as well, and don't resonate in a positive manner in any era, pretty much. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
| One of the best sayings I've heard is: If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 40 and STILL a liberal, you have no brain. |
What if you're a liberal at 20 and a radical at 40? |
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wintermute
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
| Yaya wrote: |
| One of the best sayings I've heard is: If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 40 and STILL a liberal, you have no brain. |
What if you're a liberal at 20 and a radical at 40? |
You've got balls. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
One of the best sayings I've heard is: If you're 20 and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 40 and STILL a liberal, you have no brain. |
I think Churchill got it wrong. When you're 20, you're usually a potential beneficiary, so you're more likely to be liberal. You're also more open to fresh ideas (although this doesn't necessary make one swing left).
But when you're 40, you're more likely to be a taxpayer that others rely upon for financial support.
If Churchill's statement is true (and we should suspect that its false), it may have more to do with self-interest than heart or brains. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
| He was also a guy the US government flew in from the states and placed front and center. |
Not really that simple. He earned his place.
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�Few heads in international politics have been battered longer or harder than his,� his biographer, Robert Oliver, wrote in 1951. �During a political career that began in 1894, Dr. Rhee has spent seven years in prison, seven months under daily torture, and 41 years in exile with a price on his head. He has directed a revolution, served as president of the world�s longest-lived government-in-exile, has knocked vainly at the portals of international conferences, and finally shepherded his cause to success.�
He founded a daily newspaper and organized protests against corruption and against Japanese and Russian designs on Korea. For this, he was jailed in 1897. For seven months of this seven-year sentence, his head was locked in a wooden weight, his feet were in stocks and his hands cuffed. He was beaten with rods and had oiled paper wrapped around his arms and set on fire. |
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/12/363_97887.html
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| He was incensed that the United States had not repelled the Chinese during the Korean War |
....Which is naive.
What he didn't realise is that the US never had a mandate to occupy anywhere north of the 38th parralel. Korea was a defensive war to preserve the south.
Yes US troops did fight their way deep into DPRK at one point but they were stymied by directives from the white house who did not want to go full throttle. It would have meant a wider war with china..and then russia.. possibly the start of WW3.
Both the US and China were careful to avoid a fuller confrontation- which is why the Chinese troops that were sent to Korea were officially only "volunteers"- not officially commisioned from beijing. The US could easily have used more firepower to bomb the bridges across the yalu and halt the chinese advance, or even bombed Chinese fortifications north of the border. But they didn't. It was a proxy war...and its not surprising the koreans didn't really understand the international implications. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| He was also a guy the US government flew in from the states and placed front and center. |
Not really that simple. He earned his place.
| Quote: |
�Few heads in international politics have been battered longer or harder than his,� his biographer, Robert Oliver, wrote in 1951. �During a political career that began in 1894, Dr. Rhee has spent seven years in prison, seven months under daily torture, and 41 years in exile with a price on his head. He has directed a revolution, served as president of the world�s longest-lived government-in-exile, has knocked vainly at the portals of international conferences, and finally shepherded his cause to success.�
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http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/12/363_97887.html
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Nice job of basing your analysis on what a US writer assigned to do a biopic on Rhee wrote during the Korean War
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/55a/186.html
Dr. Rhee Syngman ruled South Korea from 1948 until his downfall in 1960. His fanatic anti-communism made him a darling of the United States. In spite of his professed faith in Christianity, he had more Koreans killed than any other tyrants in the Korean history.
He was the man behind the Cheju 4.3 Massacre, the Daejun Massacre, the Suwon Massacre, the blowing up the Hangang Bridge, assassination of Kim Ku and Yo Woon Young and countless other killings of Koreans.
Although Dr. Rhee dominated Korea for over ten years, little information is available on him on the Internet and what little cyber-information available is mostly false or inaccurate. For example, one source claims that Rhee presided over a �government in exile in Hawaii�. Another source claims Rhee was from the royal family line. Most history books praise him as the �tiger of Korea�, democratically elected founder of Korea, most revered by all Koreans even today, and so on.
Nothing can be further from truth.
�Rhee is a sinister and dangerous man, an anachronism who had strayed into this age to use the clich??s and machinery of democracy for unscrupulous and undemocratic ends.��Mark Gayn, the Chicago Sun
�The Korean leadership is provided by that numerically small class which virtually monopolizes the native wealth and education of the country... Since this class could not have acquired and maintained its favored position under Japanese rule without a certain minimum of collaboration, it has experienced difficulty in finding acceptable candidates for political office and has been forced to support imported expatiate politicians such as Syngman Rhee and Kim Ku. These, while they have no pro-Japanese taint, are essentially demagogue bent on autocratic rule.��March 10, 1948, US CIA
�Rhee will be killed in a few weeks, when the Korean people find out the truth.��Gen. MacArthur.
All the legends aside, Rhee was born on March 26, 1875 (many of the �official� documents list 1876, but Rhee listed 1875 as the year of his birth on his application to Princeton), a son of an impoverished yangban, Rhee Kyong Sun. Rhee organized fellow students to oppose the corrupt Yi government and spent six years in jail for his �treason�. While in prison, he became a Christian.
Rhee was penniless and the Princeton University waived the fees and the Princeton Theological Seminary gave him free room and board (Rhee�s mailing address was: 111 Hodge Hall, Princeton, NJ) on Rhee�s promise that he would return to Korea to spread the Gospel.
In a neat handwritten letter to the Princeton officials dated September 23, 1908, Rhee pleads for special considerations for his �extreme poverty� and his promised return to Korea by 1910. He wants a Ph.D. in two years and the Princeton granted his wish in a letter dated October 2, 1908. Rhee lived at 202 N 36th St., New York, NY at the time.
Curiously, Princeton had contacted Harvard to verify Rhee�s alleged Master�s degree. It turned out that even though Rhee had completed his master degree requirements, he had not been awarded the degree yet. Princeton decided to ignore Rhee�s �misunderstanding� and the whole matter was dropped. (Rhee�s �official� biography states that Rhee was awarded a Master�s degree from Harvard in 1908, but the degree was awarded in 1909, one year after Rhee was admitted to Princeton).
Rhee was not a good student. His grade cards show: Economics (D), Government (B) and 3 History courses (B, B, C). He took 7 classes at Princeton barely passing them. In fact, the first reading of his thesis��Neutrality As Influenced by the United States��was unfavorable. In an April 14, 1910 letter, Prof. Edward Elliott, Dean of College, informed Rhee that �The majority of those who have examined it are unwilling to recommend its acceptance..�.
On May 24, 1910, Rhee�s thesis was accepted finally �on condition that the last part be put into as good condition as the first..� Rhee was finally granted his Ph.D.�the first Korean to be so honored�on June 3, 1910. However, Rhee could not raise enough money to bind and publish his thesis as required by Princeton and Rhee was given one year to comply with this rule.
In mid-1910, Rhee Syngman returned to Korea as a teacher at Seoul YMCA and as a Christian missionary (Methodist). He lived at YMCA, Seoul, Korea. In a letter dated January 31, 1911, Rhee tells Princeton that he does not have the $80 needed for his thesis. He wrote �I have to ask for some more help either from the University or from the unknown friend who helped me so much already.� The �unknown friend� probably refers to the Methodist Church of America.
In 1912, Rhee Syngman gave up his evangelic work in Korea and emigrated to Hawaii as headmaster of a Methodist school, The Korean Christian Institute, Honolulu, Hawaii. There, Rhee founded and edited the Korean Pacific Magazine in 1913.
On Dec. 8, 1920, Rhee Syngman arrived in Shanghai. Rhee was elected president of the KPG in 1919, in absentia, but this was the first time Rhee set foot in the KPG office.
Unfortunately for the KGP, Rhee was more interested in fermenting dissension in the ranks than in forming a united front against Japan. Rhee was finally expelled by Kim Ku from the KPG in 1925 for embezzelements (in 1960, he was expelled again, being accused of taking $20 million from his Seoul government among other misdeed). Kim Ku became the president.
Rhee returned to Hawaii in disgrace. From 1925 to 1945, Rhee attempted to pass himself off as the sole representative of Korea even though the Korean Provisional Government disowned him in 1925. The US State Dept. officials wrote him off as an old man out of touch and representing no one but himself in Korea.
In America, Rhee�s financial problems worsened and he turned to the Soviets for help. On his train tip to Moscow, Rhee met a young Austrian woman, Francisca Donner. Rhee was refused entry to the Soviet Union. Bitterly disappointed, he returned to Hawaii but kept in touch with Miss. Donner.
He married Francisca Donner on October 8, 1934 in New York City. He supported his family on contributions from other Koreans in US. In 1943, the Korean National Association in the US accused Rhee of taking money earmarked for independence activities for his personal use. According to a Princeton document, Rhee and his wife lived at 1766 Hobart Street, NW, Washington, DC. in 1940.
Rhee listed his profession as: �Washington Representative� of the Provisional Government of Korea in Exile, Chungking, China. In a 1948 document, Rhee lists his position as: �Chairman, Korean Commission�, located at 4700 16th Street, NW, Washington, DC.
On October 12, 1945, Gen. MacArthur ordered Col. Preston Goodfellow, former Deputy Director of the OSS (Office of Strategic Services), to fetch Syngman Rhee from America. Rhee owed this fortune to Chiang Kai Sek. MacArthur was looking for a Korean leader he could count on and asked Chiang Kai Sek for a recommendation. Chiang came out with two names: Kim Ku and Rhee Syngman.
MacArthur ordered Gen. Hodge (in charge of Korea) to treat Rhee with respect and do whatever in Hodge�s power to anoint Rhee as the chosen puppet to control the �Korean mobs�.
Rhee had been trying to return home since Aug. 15, 1945, but the US State Dept. would not issue him a passport for his travel. Sometime in the 1940�s, Rhee was enrolled into the OSS by Col. Preston Goodfellow. The OSS wanted �Col. Rhee� to organize an espionage network inside Korea.
However, �Col. Rhee� had no contact in Korea and could not find a single Korean in Korea for this job. Nevertheless, Rhee gave out generous �concessions� in post-war Korea to a number of his supporters including Goodfellow in return for their support for his authority Korea.
In 1948, Rhee was �democratically elected President of the First Republic of Korea.. Rhee was removed from power by the Korean people in 1960.
On April 28, 1960, a DC-4 belonging to the Civil Air Transport (CAT was operated by the US CIA) spirited Rhee out of Korea barely one step ahead of a lynch mob. Kim Yong Kap, Rhee�s Deputy Minister of Finance, revealed that Rhee took $20 million of the government fund.
Yep, he really earned it. |
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NohopeSeriously
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
| Nice job of basing your analysis on what a US writer assigned to do a biopic on Rhee wrote during the Korean War |
Defending Rhee Syngman is like defending the notorious satanically evil Adolf Hitler. Just saying........... 
Lesson in life if you live in South Korea: never defend Rhee Syngman, even if you are a Brit or an American |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Rhee was democratically elected.
The first democratically elected leader Korea ever had. Thanks to the UN and the US.
And you're trying to tell me it wasn't a step towards democracy? |
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