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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by slothrop on Thu May 17, 2012 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
Teachers shouldn't be hitting children. |
You're right.
That should be the headmasters job.
And not hitting with fists, slaps or anything ridiculous-as has been the case in korea.
A cane. To the backside.
Quick, physically harmless and saves years of ill behaviour. Probably saves some kids from being career criminals. Saves their lives.
Physical force is the foundation of authority.
If the police were ultimately unable to handcuff, beat, shoot or arrest wrongdoers then we would live in a miserable, non-viable society. Hold on, thats exactly what people like you are trying to create by mollycoddling kids into being antisocial violent criminals. |
And yet practically all the quantifiable research says your wrong. In fact much of the available research indicates that it increases anti-social behavior and aggression. This report complies a lot of the research, in case you are interested in using facts in stead of just what you think.
http://www.childrensmn.org/web/healthprof/032625.pdf |
Must be the wrong research. Decades ago when discipline was strict, crime was low. Nowadays, it isn't. Seems like your research is fudged and not credible. Any idiot can argue numbers 6 ways to Sunday. It's what actually happens that results. If I ever go home, I'd like to put a boot up every Politically Correct facists you know what! Thanks for nothing. Besides, didn't Dr Spock's kid commit suicide. (He put out that famous book that said it was ok to not discipline your kids.) |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| K1020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but one's excessive devotion to refusing to use CP is just as weak and timid as the bullying CP is. |
Are you actually saying an adult who chooses not hit children (using other means to moderate behavior) is as weak and timid as an adult who violently bullies children? |
I'm saying that someone who refuses to do so because it makes them squeamish is. Never rule anything out. Sticking to some philosophy out of stubbornness won't get things solved, one way or the other. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Must be the wrong research. Decades ago when discipline was strict, crime was low. Nowadays, it isn't. Seems like your research is fudged and not credible. Any idiot can argue numbers 6 ways to Sunday. It's what actually happens that results. If I ever go home, I'd like to put a boot up every Politically Correct facists you know what! Thanks for nothing. Besides, didn't Dr Spock's kid commit suicide. (He put out that famous book that said it was ok to not discipline your kids.) |
What are you talking about? Are you going to reject any crime statistics you see in favor of your subjective view? Per Wikipedia:
| Quote: |
| In 2009 America's crime rate was roughly the same as in 1968, with the homicide rate being at its lowest level since 1964. Overall, the national crime rate was 3466 crimes per 100,000 residents, down from 3680 crimes per 100,000 residents forty years earlier in 1969 (-9.4%). |
So the actual crime rate has held pretty steady, though the stats for the '60s are pre-War on Drugs, which accounts for a whole lot of non-violent offenses. If you want to speak about violent crime more specifically, again, your argument is false:
| Quote: |
| Despite the recent stagnation of the homicide rate, however, property and violent crimes overall have continued to decrease, though at a considerably slower pace than in the 1990s.Overall, the crime rate in the U.S. was the same in 2009 as in 1968, with the homicide rate being roughly the same as in 1964. Violent crime overall, however, is still at the same level as in 1973, despite having decreased steadily since 1991. |
Finally:
| Quote: |
| The year 2010 was overall the safest year in almost forty years. The recent overall decrease has reflected upon all significant types of crime, with all violent and property crimes having decreased and reached an all-time low. The homicide rate in particular has decreased 51% between its record high point in 1991 and 2010. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
Now, if you're not speaking of the US then these statistics don't mean much, but regardless, your assertion that crime explodes when corporal punishment is abolished clearly isn't a universal truth. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
All of what you say is true, but one's excessive devotion to refusing to use CP is just as weak and timid as the bullying CP is.
Do you not understand that there are people out there who just don't respond to anything but physical strength? |
Hey SR,
You have a pretty strong opinion on the subject, in general you do on any subject, which is fine, it makes for some interesting threads.
The objection I have here is when you exagerate and distort to the extreme other people's opinions when they differ from your own.
I have no excessive devotion to refusing to use CP.
I use it.
I just don't use it on little school children.
Just to give you a clearer idea...I think it is wrong in schools.
I believe CP has its place...among peers...in the animal instinct sense of dominance.
A wise person lives with this always in mind, and I get where you are coming from on this subject.
However, if you personally think a student won't respect any force but CP...then my opinion is that student belongs at home...ok?
But no CP in schools.
At home...parents have tough decisions to make.
Though this has been linked to before...it is worth repeating...and adds some humor to this otherwise heated subject.
Well worth watching...more than once.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| I'm convinced this is nothing more than fear mongering sensationalism. If anything, things seem to have gotten a lot better. I've seen plenty of "Oh noes! Schools are all going to hell!" type reports in my day when there was plenty of corporal punishment. Back then I lived in constant fear of getting my ass kicked by either the teachers or older students. Plenty of inter-school violence then too. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
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[quote="The Sultan of Seoul"][b]Basically there has been a breakdown of respect for adults, parents and authority worldwide in the past two decades to a shocking degree.[/b]
You can post all the hippy nonsense you like - though that is exactly what caused the problem in the first place - but it is essentially, when you take it to the bottom line, about ONE THING. The kids are not SCARED of getting out of line anymore. THEY DO NOT FEAR CONSEQUENCES.
Back in the 70's and 80's, you didn't mess up because you were SCARED of the consequences. Now you are not as you know that social services will catch you, call your parents fascist monsters if they hit you with the wooden spoon or ground you and give you a three month paid holiday to the Caribbean. Get caught doing a minor crime? No problem, cpl months in young offender's, go on the dole and have a free council flat and watch Jerry Springer all day. Pretty sure for the US it's simmilar. Also I blame gangster rap music. YES. There is less and less stigma about being a fcuk up these days. No problem, I'm a gangsta yo and I'll follow my DREAM MAN and go on pop idol or big brother and get a tv deal yo.
Kids heads are in the clouds, they think they are in charge because they are over catered to and treatred with kid gloves.
If they feel like nothing will really happen if they get out of line - guess what? They need to feel that if they get majorly out of line - there will be - real or just imagined - consequences. Nasty, scary, bleak consequences, not some hippy drippy fluffy consequences, but consequences such as being disaowned by the family and community and sent to the army or the poorhouse or prison camp - for a long time.
They now know that if an adult raises a hand to them - the adult will get in trouble! So they push the boundaries. That's what kids do! The hippy dippy bunch basically do not understand how kids work. Back when I was a kid, a teacher threw the board eraser at me and it hit me on the nose. I rushed home to tell the old man and imagined he'd go to the school and raise hell. Know what he said 'well if you weren't fighting with Stuart in class, you wouldn't have got hit on the nose with the board eraser, what do you expect? I hear you do that again and you're grounded for a month.' Another time we were taunting this man who lived down our street and he got angry. Again, I told the old man. Old man said 'well if he hits you, good for him, and if I hear you've been running your mouth off at him again, I'LL give you a good crack too.' You think we taunted the old man ever again? No, because we knew we could not win.
That's the natural order of things and the way they should be.
[/quote]
+1
Good post.
It's not only that kids now don't fear the consequences, they don't even have the slightest notion of what a consequence really is. In other words, it barely registers that in the real hierarchy the adult could potentially put them through the wall for blatant insolence and disrespect. If an adult did actually take action they'd likely be so shocked they wouldn't know what to do or why the adult did it, since the disrespect is so commonplace now.
All throughout history, the natural order was that kids and teens were deferential to adults. Now some want to throw that out the window or something. Let's not and say we did.
People can argue stats all they want, but there are a lot of factors and the numbers don't tell everything.
CP or no CP, the experiment in pampering kids and teens and treating them like untouchable royalty should end ASAP. It's not good for anyone. Bring back the natural hierarchy. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Must be the wrong research. Decades ago when discipline was strict, crime was low. Nowadays, it isn't. Seems like your research is fudged and not credible. Any idiot can argue numbers 6 ways to Sunday. It's what actually happens that results. If I ever go home, I'd like to put a boot up every Politically Correct facists you know what! Thanks for nothing. Besides, didn't Dr Spock's kid commit suicide. (He put out that famous book that said it was ok to not discipline your kids.) |
What are you talking about? Are you going to reject any crime statistics you see in favor of your subjective view? Per Wikipedia:
| Quote: |
| In 2009 America's crime rate was roughly the same as in 1968, with the homicide rate being at its lowest level since 1964. Overall, the national crime rate was 3466 crimes per 100,000 residents, down from 3680 crimes per 100,000 residents forty years earlier in 1969 (-9.4%). |
So the actual crime rate has held pretty steady, though the stats for the '60s are pre-War on Drugs, which accounts for a whole lot of non-violent offenses. If you want to speak about violent crime more specifically, again, your argument is false:
| Quote: |
| Despite the recent stagnation of the homicide rate, however, property and violent crimes overall have continued to decrease, though at a considerably slower pace than in the 1990s.Overall, the crime rate in the U.S. was the same in 2009 as in 1968, with the homicide rate being roughly the same as in 1964. Violent crime overall, however, is still at the same level as in 1973, despite having decreased steadily since 1991. |
Finally:
| Quote: |
| The year 2010 was overall the safest year in almost forty years. The recent overall decrease has reflected upon all significant types of crime, with all violent and property crimes having decreased and reached an all-time low. The homicide rate in particular has decreased 51% between its record high point in 1991 and 2010. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
Now, if you're not speaking of the US then these statistics don't mean much, but regardless, your assertion that crime explodes when corporal punishment is abolished clearly isn't a universal truth. |
Violent crime started rising around the 60's and 70's. This is when corporal punishment started being phased out. But our parents, the baby boomers, often grew up as children of priviledge compared to previous generations. Violent crime has gone down some because of tougher laws, more jails, an aging baby boomer population, etc. Prison overcrowding is rife. People spared the rod and spoiled the child. Now there's a whole lot more of them in jail. (There are less repeat offenders because of 3 strikes and youre out.)
The fact is violent crime is still much much higher than it was in our grandparents lives when they were growing up. Though I often felt their corporal punishment was used as an extreme. But, there has to be a middle ground rather than extreme corporal punishment and then none.
What we need is corporal punishment with rules and restrictions. Punishments with purposes. If the "time out" works for some kids great. But for those problem kids that it doesn't work, then it escalates to the next level with warnings. With restrictions such as no fist, hitting on the head, no leather straps, only on the hands, arms, or behind, with a school principal, vice principal, and guidance counselor as a witness, CP can be managed properly, as a last resort. It's obvious we need it, there's too much a sense of entitlement that makes people go soft.
Schools and parents can do this. Schools can give parents of problem kids a choice, corporal punishment or two week suspension. Kids are out of control and putting the nuts in charge of the nuthouse is clearly not working. Kids minds are not mature enough to be in charge. They are going to do what they want when the know there are no consequences.
The problem here in Korea is that there is no alternative punishment such as detention, suspensions, stay after school, or fail the grades. But either way, these kids will learn a lesson in the world of work when their sense of entitlement gets them fired from jobs and doomed to a life of poverty. But by then it's too late. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| [q But either way, these kids will learn a lesson in the world of work when their sense of entitlement gets them fired from jobs and doomed to a life of poverty. But by then it's too late. |
Fairly sure the two years or so of military service will teach most of them all the lessons they need to learn in that regard. At least for guys. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| [q But either way, these kids will learn a lesson in the world of work when their sense of entitlement gets them fired from jobs and doomed to a life of poverty. But by then it's too late. |
Fairly sure the two years or so of military service will teach most of them all the lessons they need to learn in that regard. At least for guys. |
Also, aren't most of the kids with a sense of entitlement from at least middle class families? This might be a generalization, but when I've worked with lower class kids, they've mostly seen anything but entitled. I mean they misbehave and all that, but they certainly aren't spoiled in the sense that they think the world revolves around them or whatever. I think poverty is something that most of the kids who feel entitled don't really need to fear to much. |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but one's excessive devotion to refusing to use CP is just as weak and timid as the bullying CP is. |
Are you actually saying an adult who chooses not hit children (using other means to moderate behavior) is as weak and timid as an adult who violently bullies children? |
I'm saying that someone who refuses to do so because it makes them squeamish is. Never rule anything out. Sticking to some philosophy out of stubbornness won't get things solved, one way or the other. |
1. Who said they don't hit kids because it makes them feel icky? -And how does "excessive devotion" to not beating a child translate to squeamishness anyway?
Not to mention the possibility that they have a more productive and healthy way to deal with behavior issues.
Yeah your right Gahandi was so stupid. All he managed to do was liberate India from the English what a moron!
I could name tons of people whose stubborn resolve has changed to world for better or for worse. Exactly how else do social ills get solved?
Again presupposing there is a problem but as many have pointed out the scholarship shows a decline in violent crime not an increase. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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The amount of things that used to be solved by a good old fashioned fight behind the school is probably more than most realize. A lot of violent crimes 40+ yrs ago never went reported. Kids used to fight and then shake hands and go on their way.
Today parents work constantly instead of raising their children. Kids have low self-esteem, since of worthlessness, self-entitlement, are exposed to tons of things real early. With each generation kids are growing up faster and faster emotionally, hormonally, and physically.
Kids shouldn't get hit, spanked, write-offs for just anything. But that seems to be the issue. The ability to choose correct punishment in the correct situation is lacking. Teachers simply aren't trained emotionally to deal with things they encounter in the classroom today. Teacher's take things too personal and react emotionally rather than rationally.
Also, our society has changed to a point where people are made to believe their rights are more important than others. The lawsuit happy U.S(I'm American) is a good example.
Kids need to be given a fair, strong system from the start. If the kids and parents enter the school there has to be a respect for the system and and administration that deserves and demands that respect.
Here in Korea there is no accountability for anything. The "TEST" is all mighty and is a huge, if not the only, factor in their future.
Consequences are a fact of life. They should be used in a school setting from day one. They don't have to be violent or physical but they must be enforced.
Adults are a different story. Some people need to be brought down a notch or two. As steelrails said, some people will only listen to good old fashioned strength. I grew up with drug addict parents and an alcoholic family. I saw more than my share of arguments and violence as a kid. Dropping the hammer on someone is, sometimes, the only way an adult will listen. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| K1020 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but one's excessive devotion to refusing to use CP is just as weak and timid as the bullying CP is. |
Are you actually saying an adult who chooses not hit children (using other means to moderate behavior) is as weak and timid as an adult who violently bullies children? |
I'm saying that someone who refuses to do so because it makes them squeamish is. Never rule anything out. Sticking to some philosophy out of stubbornness won't get things solved, one way or the other. |
1. Who said they don't hit kids because it makes them feel icky? -And how does "excessive devotion" to not beating a child translate to squeamishness anyway?
Not to mention the possibility that they have a more productive and healthy way to deal with behavior issues.
Yeah your right Gahandi was so stupid. All he managed to do was liberate India from the English what a moron!
I could name tons of people whose stubborn resolve has changed to world for better or for worse. Exactly how else do social ills get solved?
Again presupposing there is a problem but as many have pointed out the scholarship shows a decline in violent crime not an increase. |
So what is your specific example of a "more productive and healthy" way to ensure discipline? And not some vagueries like "clearly outlined consequences", I mean real specifics.
There is a difference between stubbornness and determination. Stubbornness tries to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Determination goes through 30 different shaped and sized pegs before they find the right one.
Corporal punishment is not always the right answer. Not using the CP is not always the right answer. The right answer is the right peg for the right hole. Sometimes that peg happens to be a student who doesn't care if you use any of the other pegs on them and the only peg that works is CP.
But refusing to use that peg because it makes you squeamish or stubborn pride refuses to allow you to admit that some people are CP-shaped holes? That's just a bad choice and that's my point. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but one's excessive devotion to refusing to use CP is just as weak and timid as the bullying CP is. |
Are you actually saying an adult who chooses not hit children (using other means to moderate behavior) is as weak and timid as an adult who violently bullies children? |
I'm saying that someone who refuses to do so because it makes them squeamish is. Never rule anything out. Sticking to some philosophy out of stubbornness won't get things solved, one way or the other. |
1. Who said they don't hit kids because it makes them feel icky? -And how does "excessive devotion" to not beating a child translate to squeamishness anyway?
Not to mention the possibility that they have a more productive and healthy way to deal with behavior issues.
Yeah your right Gahandi was so stupid. All he managed to do was liberate India from the English what a moron!
I could name tons of people whose stubborn resolve has changed to world for better or for worse. Exactly how else do social ills get solved?
Again presupposing there is a problem but as many have pointed out the scholarship shows a decline in violent crime not an increase. |
So what is your specific example of a "more productive and healthy" way to ensure discipline? And not some vagueries like "clearly outlined consequences", I mean real specifics.
There is a difference between stubbornness and determination. Stubbornness tries to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Determination goes through 30 different shaped and sized pegs before they find the right one.
Corporal punishment is not always the right answer. Not using the CP is not always the right answer. The right answer is the right peg for the right hole. Sometimes that peg happens to be a student who doesn't care if you use any of the other pegs on them and the only peg that works is CP.
But refusing to use that peg because it makes you squeamish or stubborn pride refuses to allow you to admit that some people are CP-shaped holes? That's just a bad choice and that's my point. |
What about statistics and case studies that show that overall CP is harmful to students, and academic success. Sure, it may be that a small number might benefit, it's practically impossible to prove if that is or isn't the case, but if we know that it is in most cases harmful for most students, than isn't it best to ban it, because clearly the teachers can not know which student is which, and perhaps wouldn't really care if they personally found the student annoying or whatever. I think that there is much more harm in trying to fit the "pegs" that don't fit into the "CP hole", than the other way around, not to mention there is quantifiable evidence that almost all students aren't "CP Pegs" as you put it. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but one's excessive devotion to refusing to use CP is just as weak and timid as the bullying CP is. |
Are you actually saying an adult who chooses not hit children (using other means to moderate behavior) is as weak and timid as an adult who violently bullies children? |
I'm saying that someone who refuses to do so because it makes them squeamish is. Never rule anything out. Sticking to some philosophy out of stubbornness won't get things solved, one way or the other. |
1. Who said they don't hit kids because it makes them feel icky? -And how does "excessive devotion" to not beating a child translate to squeamishness anyway?
Not to mention the possibility that they have a more productive and healthy way to deal with behavior issues.
Yeah your right Gahandi was so stupid. All he managed to do was liberate India from the English what a moron!
I could name tons of people whose stubborn resolve has changed to world for better or for worse. Exactly how else do social ills get solved?
Again presupposing there is a problem but as many have pointed out the scholarship shows a decline in violent crime not an increase. |
So what is your specific example of a "more productive and healthy" way to ensure discipline? And not some vagueries like "clearly outlined consequences", I mean real specifics.
There is a difference between stubbornness and determination. Stubbornness tries to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Determination goes through 30 different shaped and sized pegs before they find the right one.
Corporal punishment is not always the right answer. Not using the CP is not always the right answer. The right answer is the right peg for the right hole. Sometimes that peg happens to be a student who doesn't care if you use any of the other pegs on them and the only peg that works is CP.
But refusing to use that peg because it makes you squeamish or stubborn pride refuses to allow you to admit that some people are CP-shaped holes? That's just a bad choice and that's my point. |
Yeah, not ruling out coporal punishment but trying to use it as a last resort and as little as possible would be my first choices in handling discpiline as a parent or a teacher. |
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