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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| It's almost as if staffing fast food restaurants with ill-paid, poorly-treated adults and immature, irresponsible teenagers is not conducive to excellent results. No one could have predicted this. |
True, but what else are those kinds of people supposed to do for work? |
In many cases, I suspect the ill-paid, poorly treated adults would better perform if simply paid better and afforded some respect. The teens, on the other hand, do not need employment at all; jobs for teenagers ought to be a reward for exceptional youth, not a given.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| And I don't think you can pay people $16 an hour to flip pizzas and make it economically viable. |
In a Walmart economy, where laborers are despised and owners are exalted, yes, it is probably impossible. God forbid people get paid in a fashion remotely commensurate to the actual value they produce. |
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soomin
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| It's almost as if staffing fast food restaurants with ill-paid, poorly-treated adults and immature, irresponsible teenagers is not conducive to excellent results. No one could have predicted this. |
True, but what else are those kinds of people supposed to do for work? |
In many cases, I suspect the ill-paid, poorly treated adults would better perform if simply paid better and afforded some respect. The teens, on the other hand, do not need employment at all; jobs for teenagers ought to be a reward for exceptional youth, not a given.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| And I don't think you can pay people $16 an hour to flip pizzas and make it economically viable. |
In a Walmart economy, where laborers are despised and owners are exalted, yes, it is probably impossible. God forbid people get paid in a fashion remotely commensurate to the actual value they produce. |
You do know that most teens don't *want* to work, right? Most people, call me crazy, do it because they need the money. I worked with teens that were helping support their families and worked every day without fail, because if they didn't, there wouldn't be money coming in. Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility. Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way. There are teens that have a work ethic, but given the choice, how many teens would wake up and say, "Yeah, I just think it would be really exciting to dunk fries into hot oil every day."
Also, how much do you think a pizza really costs to make? Most pizza places take a pre-made circle out of a box, throw some toppings on it, and toss it in an oven. If not, the ingredients that go into a pizza are not expensive... a bunch of flour with a little sugar, salt, yeast, oil and water thrown in. The customer pays a lot more than what the pizza is technically worth because they are also paying for the gasoline that drove the ingredients to the store, the rent on the building, the electricity and other utilities, taxes, and then they have to pay the worker, all while still making a profit.
It's not about despising workers, it's about having a reasonable understanding that the products are inexpensive and that people will only pay so much for convenience (guess who's not making dinner tonight?) or for an experience ("Wow! Look at that guy throw the pizza dough in the air, Mom!"). |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| soomin wrote: |
You do know that most teens don't *want* to work, right? Most people, call me crazy, do it because they need the money. I worked with teens that were helping support their families and worked every day without fail, because if they didn't, there wouldn't be money coming in. |
This is no where near universal, and to the extent that it does occur, it occurs because of precisely the factor I mentioned above: the Walmart economic model. Yes, if you pay a child's father and mother minimum wage, they might have a hard time raising a family. Is the answer to that to also pay their irresponsible teenage daughter minimum wage for a third job, or to simply pay them more equitably in the first place? You seem to be implicitly supporting the former. I'm for the latter.
| soomin wrote: |
| Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility. |
There are plenty of ways to teach responsibility that don't revolve around minimum wage jobs and people's food being handled by irresponsible teens. But yes, I forgot, in modern American, every aspect of parenting must be outsourced.
| soomin wrote: |
| Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way. |
And these are the exceptional youths who I recommended offering employment to, so it's not even a disagreement with what I've said. Are you responding to me here, or just typing to type? Because if it's the latter, I'd rather not be quoted.
| soomin wrote: |
| Also, how much do you think a pizza really costs to make? Most pizza places take a pre-made circle out of a box, throw some toppings on it, and toss it in an oven. If not, the ingredients that go into a pizza are not expensive... a bunch of flour with a little sugar, salt, yeast, oil and water thrown in. The customer pays a lot more than what the pizza is technically worth because they are also paying for the gasoline that drove the ingredients to the store, the rent on the building, the electricity and other utilities, taxes, and then they have to pay the worker, all while still making a profit. |
Emphasis on that last bit. Ever wonder why the top 1% controls a huge portion of society's wealth, while the bottom 50% controls almost none? It's because people have been gulled into accepting ridiculously low wages compared to the value they actually produce, allowing ever-more "profit" to shoot upwards to the top of the hierarchy. In this post, you are, whether you realize it or not, defending that model. You're defending, probably unwittingly, the status quo of a family that makes so little money that forcing their teenage daughter to cook people's food for a little extra cash seems to make economic sense. Congratulations.
| soomin wrote: |
| It's not about despising workers ... |
Regardless of whatever you might think or feel in your heart, in this post you have repeated the rhetoric that empowers those who despise workers and exalt owners, so don't speak to me regarding what it is or isn't about. If you're going to sit here and try to justify families earning so little money that their children have to work just for the family to get by so that profits can be maximized, then expected to be responded to accordingly. |
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soomin
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| soomin wrote: |
You do know that most teens don't *want* to work, right? Most people, call me crazy, do it because they need the money. I worked with teens that were helping support their families and worked every day without fail, because if they didn't, there wouldn't be money coming in. |
This is no where near universal, and to the extent that it does occur, it occurs because of precisely the factor I mentioned above: the Walmart economic model. Yes, if you pay a child's father and mother minimum wage, they might have a hard time raising a family. Is the answer to that to also pay their irresponsible teenage daughter minimum wage for a third job, or to simply pay them more equitably in the first place? You seem to be implicitly supporting the former. I'm for the latter.
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First of all, most is not a universal word. Also, not everyone has two parents, or two parents who are earning money. Some people have families with medical conditions making them unable to work, or have had deaths in the family, divorces, or many other extenuating circumstances. If someone's mother is bed-ridden, their father is working his butt off trying to pay the medical bills and pay to support the household, then why does that make their kids "irresponsible?" Only kids planning for college are responsible, now? I really respected my coworkers who were helping their family, but apparently, they should just be sitting at home? And what about the parents who are making minimum wage? Do you think it could be because they also didn't have the resources to go to college? Most people (again, not universal), would like to make money and live comfortably, but it's just not going to happen with their skill set, economic status, financial troubles, familial circumstances, etc. So... they should do, what now? Nothing? Protest the fact that they aren't getting more money and just hope that someone from on high levels the playing field? I don't know what kind of dream world you're living in, but you don't seem to be connected to reality.
| Fox wrote: |
| soomin wrote: |
| Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility. |
There are plenty of ways to teach responsibility that don't revolve around minimum wage jobs and people's food being handled by irresponsible teens. But yes, I forgot, in modern American, every aspect of parenting must be outsourced. |
Oh yes, because getting real world work experience, getting things to put on your future resumes, and learning about how businesses work through your own personal experience are all things that are completely unnecessary...
| Fox wrote: |
| soomin wrote: |
| Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way. |
And these are the exceptional youths who I recommended offering employment to, so it's not even a disagreement with what I've said. Are you responding to me here, or just typing to type? Because if it's the latter, I'd rather not be quoted. |
Only the college-bound are "exceptional" enough to be given the gift of flipping burgers?
| Fox wrote: |
Emphasis on that last bit. Ever wonder why the top 1% controls a huge portion of society's wealth, while the bottom 50% controls almost none? It's because people have been gulled into accepting ridiculously low wages compared to the value they actually produce, allowing ever-more "profit" to shoot upwards to the top of the hierarchy. In this post, you are, whether you realize it or not, defending that model. You're defending, probably unwittingly, the status quo of a family that makes so little money that forcing their teenage daughter to cook people's food for a little extra cash seems to make economic sense. Congratulations. |
I'm sorry... maybe you haven't been to a grocery store in a while, so, let me let you in on a secret. Flour and water... not expensive. Unless you're throwing some incredibly expensive toppings on there, how much do you think people are going to pay? And even if you did make some really top-quality pizza, how many people would switch over to buying that one? People usually (again, not universal) buy fast food because it's convenient, relatively cheap, and it can be an experience (as I've stated before). Would the average person go from paying $8-10 for a pizza to $50 for no other reason than, "we want to pay workers more?" If you said yes, you are probably in a much higher tax bracket than many, so congratulations! You also have probably not worked a part-time job where people would barter with you for ice cream, or where customers would complain and try to get discounts on their food because "it's so expensive~ I can go to the grocery store and get it for half the price."
| Fox wrote: |
| soomin wrote: |
| It's not about despising workers ... |
Regardless of whatever you might think or feel in your heart, in this post you have repeated the rhetoric that empowers those who despise workers and exalt owners, so don't speak to me regarding what it is or isn't about. If you're going to sit here and try to justify families earning so little money that their children have to work just for the family to get by so that profits can be maximized, then expected to be responded to accordingly. |
Just because I realize that not everyone is well-off, does not mean I condone it. I'm living in a world where people have to work minimum wage jobs to get by due to their own personal circumstances. One of my friends was going to college full-time and working two jobs to support herself and her brother. One of my friends was looking forward to the day when he could graduate high school, leave Baskin Robbins, and move up by being a construction worker, because then he would really be able to support his mom and siblings. I worked with a mother and daughter team, and with many others. I guess if everyone were rich and only those pursuing expensive college-degrees were working non-career jobs, then no one would mind paying $50 for a pizza. I, unfortunately, live in the real world, and trying to explain that world to someone with no grip on reality is a waste of time. I'm out. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| soomin wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| soomin wrote: |
You do know that most teens don't *want* to work, right? Most people, call me crazy, do it because they need the money. I worked with teens that were helping support their families and worked every day without fail, because if they didn't, there wouldn't be money coming in. |
This is no where near universal, and to the extent that it does occur, it occurs because of precisely the factor I mentioned above: the Walmart economic model. Yes, if you pay a child's father and mother minimum wage, they might have a hard time raising a family. Is the answer to that to also pay their irresponsible teenage daughter minimum wage for a third job, or to simply pay them more equitably in the first place? You seem to be implicitly supporting the former. I'm for the latter.
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First of all, most is not a universal word. |
Soomin, "most teens" was not what I was denying the universality of. Seriously, these posts are getting long enough without you pissing away word count through misunderstandings.
| soomin wrote: |
| Also, not everyone has two parents, or two parents who are earning money. |
My solution to that is state-provided financial assistance. Your solution, evidently, is child labor. Splendid.
| soomin wrote: |
| I really respected my coworkers who were helping their family, but apparently, they should just be sitting at home? |
1) I don't care who you respect.
2) They shouldn't be sitting at home doing nothing, they should be studying and improving themselves. Perhaps some sort of apprenticeship program could qualify for this sort of self-improvement, but flipping burgers at McDonald's assuredly does not.
| soomin wrote: |
| And what about the parents who are making minimum wage? |
They are in large part the victims of the social paradigm you are here acting as an apologist for, so I suppose I am the one who ought to be asking you that question, not the reverse. Seriously, highlighting the victims of the system you're here supporting is not an effective debate strategy. Save the word count next time.
| soomin wrote: |
| I don't know what kind of dream world you're living in, but you don't seem to be connected to reality. |
You are fundamentally -- and I suspect intentionally -- misunderstanding the nature of this discussion. This is a discussion about how things should be, not how things are.
| soomin wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| soomin wrote: |
| Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility. |
There are plenty of ways to teach responsibility that don't revolve around minimum wage jobs and people's food being handled by irresponsible teens. But yes, I forgot, in modern American, every aspect of parenting must be outsourced. |
Oh yes, because getting real world work experience, getting things to put on your future resumes, and learning about how businesses work through your own personal experience are all things that are completely unnecessary... |
Who is out of touch with reality now? That year spent flipping burgers and scrubbing toilets and McDonald's is not going to be adding serious shine to your resume, and it's not going to teach you anything about how business actually works beyond, "Do what your told," a lesson which students spend 12+ years learning already in the classroom environment.
| soomin wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| soomin wrote: |
| Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way. |
And these are the exceptional youths who I recommended offering employment to, so it's not even a disagreement with what I've said. Are you responding to me here, or just typing to type? Because if it's the latter, I'd rather not be quoted. |
Only the college-bound are "exceptional" enough to be given the gift of flipping burgers? |
So are you distorting my case here, or are you misunderstanding it? Perhaps some of both. Let's impress some clarity upon you:
1) Maintaining a household is a necessity of life, and a family ought not to be required to rely upon the labor of their children to succeed in this endeavor in a developed, first world country. Thus, I deny the validity of child labor as a source of household maintenance; such a status quo is a bandaid solution at best, and ought to be despised and rectified by society as a whole (and arguably it's not even a bandaid, since parents being fired and their children being hired more cheaply is something which can serve to inflame the core problem in question).
2) A university education is not a necessity of life, and thus, the notion of an exceptional youth working to save up money towards this laudable end is a tolerable one.
It's not about rewarding anyone with the experience of flipping burgers. Is that so hard to grasp?
| soomin wrote: |
| I'm sorry... maybe you haven't been to a grocery store in a while, so, let me let you in on a secret. Flour and water... not expensive. Unless you're throwing some incredibly expensive toppings on there, how much do you think people are going to pay? |
They already pay. The problem isn't that people aren't willing to pay, it's that what they pay ends up in the wrong hands. The fact that you keep bringing up the cost of ingredients implies to me that you're just plain confused about this issue. This is about a more fair distribution of business profits, favoring those who actually create value rather than those who rent seek. Read that sentence again and again and again. And this isn't simply limited to the restaurant business; American workers in a variety of industries are fleeced of the value they produce by the owning class. You're ultimately supporting this with your rhetoric. I am arguing against it.
| soomin wrote: |
| Just because I realize that not everyone is well-off, does not mean I condone it. |
Cease the disingenuity. You are not simply here telling me about how things are. You are actively making a case for the status quo. You are acting as an apologist for it. If you don't condone it, then you are contradicting that which is in your heart. More likely you know you're wrong deep down, but you're one of those people, who think that acknowledging the flawed nature of our society but explaining why it "has to be that way," makes you wise and mature. It doesn't. It makes you a dupe.
| soomin wrote: |
| I guess if everyone were rich and only those pursuing expensive college-degrees were working non-career jobs, then no one would mind paying $50 for a pizza. |
The $50 pizza is a strawman, and a lame one at that. Nothing I've described would require this.
| soomin wrote: |
| I, unfortunately, live in the real world, and trying to explain that world to someone with no grip on reality is a waste of time. |
It's awfully stupid to talk about "how it is" to someone who is articulating "how it should be," most especially when the man in question's case regarding "how it should be," has already explicitly acknowledged, "how it is." So spare me the "keepin' it real" rubbish, because it misses the point entirely.
| soomin wrote: |
| One of my friends ... One of my friends ... I worked ... |
And now it all comes clear. It's all about you you you. God forbid society is improved so that other | | |
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