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Disgusting Behavior From Kid Who Cooks Your Whopper..His Way
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:21 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Fox wrote:

It's almost as if staffing fast food restaurants with ill-paid, poorly-treated adults and immature, irresponsible teenagers is not conducive to excellent results. No one could have predicted this.

True, but what else are those kinds of people supposed to do for work?

In many cases, I suspect the ill-paid, poorly treated adults would better perform if simply paid better and afforded some respect. The teens, on the other hand, do not need employment at all; jobs for teenagers ought to be a reward for exceptional youth, not a given.

Steelrails wrote:

And I don't think you can pay people $16 an hour to flip pizzas and make it economically viable.

In a Walmart economy, where laborers are despised and owners are exalted, yes, it is probably impossible. God forbid people get paid in a fashion remotely commensurate to the actual value they produce.

soomin

Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:21 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Fox wrote:

It's almost as if staffing fast food restaurants with ill-paid, poorly-treated adults and immature, irresponsible teenagers is not conducive to excellent results. No one could have predicted this.

True, but what else are those kinds of people supposed to do for work?

Steelrails wrote:

And I don't think you can pay people $16 an hour to flip pizzas and make it economically viable.

You do know that most teens don't *want* to work, right? Most people, call me crazy, do it because they need the money. I worked with teens that were helping support their families and worked every day without fail, because if they didn't, there wouldn't be money coming in. Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility. Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way. There are teens that have a work ethic, but given the choice, how many teens would wake up and say, "Yeah, I just think it would be really exciting to dunk fries into hot oil every day."

Also, how much do you think a pizza really costs to make? Most pizza places take a pre-made circle out of a box, throw some toppings on it, and toss it in an oven. If not, the ingredients that go into a pizza are not expensive... a bunch of flour with a little sugar, salt, yeast, oil and water thrown in. The customer pays a lot more than what the pizza is technically worth because they are also paying for the gasoline that drove the ingredients to the store, the rent on the building, the electricity and other utilities, taxes, and then they have to pay the worker, all while still making a profit.

It's not about despising workers, it's about having a reasonable understanding that the products are inexpensive and that people will only pay so much for convenience (guess who's not making dinner tonight?) or for an experience ("Wow! Look at that guy throw the pizza dough in the air, Mom!").

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject:

soomin wrote:

This is no where near universal, and to the extent that it does occur, it occurs because of precisely the factor I mentioned above: the Walmart economic model. Yes, if you pay a child's father and mother minimum wage, they might have a hard time raising a family. Is the answer to that to also pay their irresponsible teenage daughter minimum wage for a third job, or to simply pay them more equitably in the first place? You seem to be implicitly supporting the former. I'm for the latter.

soomin wrote:

Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility.

There are plenty of ways to teach responsibility that don't revolve around minimum wage jobs and people's food being handled by irresponsible teens. But yes, I forgot, in modern American, every aspect of parenting must be outsourced.

soomin wrote:

Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way.

And these are the exceptional youths who I recommended offering employment to, so it's not even a disagreement with what I've said. Are you responding to me here, or just typing to type? Because if it's the latter, I'd rather not be quoted.

soomin wrote:

Also, how much do you think a pizza really costs to make? Most pizza places take a pre-made circle out of a box, throw some toppings on it, and toss it in an oven. If not, the ingredients that go into a pizza are not expensive... a bunch of flour with a little sugar, salt, yeast, oil and water thrown in. The customer pays a lot more than what the pizza is technically worth because they are also paying for the gasoline that drove the ingredients to the store, the rent on the building, the electricity and other utilities, taxes, and then they have to pay the worker, all while still making a profit.

Emphasis on that last bit. Ever wonder why the top 1% controls a huge portion of society's wealth, while the bottom 50% controls almost none? It's because people have been gulled into accepting ridiculously low wages compared to the value they actually produce, allowing ever-more "profit" to shoot upwards to the top of the hierarchy. In this post, you are, whether you realize it or not, defending that model. You're defending, probably unwittingly, the status quo of a family that makes so little money that forcing their teenage daughter to cook people's food for a little extra cash seems to make economic sense. Congratulations.

soomin wrote:

It's not about despising workers ...

Regardless of whatever you might think or feel in your heart, in this post you have repeated the rhetoric that empowers those who despise workers and exalt owners, so don't speak to me regarding what it is or isn't about. If you're going to sit here and try to justify families earning so little money that their children have to work just for the family to get by so that profits can be maximized, then expected to be responded to accordingly.

soomin

Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

soomin wrote:

First of all, most is not a universal word. Also, not everyone has two parents, or two parents who are earning money. Some people have families with medical conditions making them unable to work, or have had deaths in the family, divorces, or many other extenuating circumstances. If someone's mother is bed-ridden, their father is working his butt off trying to pay the medical bills and pay to support the household, then why does that make their kids "irresponsible?" Only kids planning for college are responsible, now? I really respected my coworkers who were helping their family, but apparently, they should just be sitting at home? And what about the parents who are making minimum wage? Do you think it could be because they also didn't have the resources to go to college? Most people (again, not universal), would like to make money and live comfortably, but it's just not going to happen with their skill set, economic status, financial troubles, familial circumstances, etc. So... they should do, what now? Nothing? Protest the fact that they aren't getting more money and just hope that someone from on high levels the playing field? I don't know what kind of dream world you're living in, but you don't seem to be connected to reality.

Fox wrote:

soomin wrote:

Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility.

Oh yes, because getting real world work experience, getting things to put on your future resumes, and learning about how businesses work through your own personal experience are all things that are completely unnecessary...

Fox wrote:

soomin wrote:

Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way.

Only the college-bound are "exceptional" enough to be given the gift of flipping burgers?

Fox wrote:

I'm sorry... maybe you haven't been to a grocery store in a while, so, let me let you in on a secret. Flour and water... not expensive. Unless you're throwing some incredibly expensive toppings on there, how much do you think people are going to pay? And even if you did make some really top-quality pizza, how many people would switch over to buying that one? People usually (again, not universal) buy fast food because it's convenient, relatively cheap, and it can be an experience (as I've stated before). Would the average person go from paying $8-10 for a pizza to $50 for no other reason than, "we want to pay workers more?" If you said yes, you are probably in a much higher tax bracket than many, so congratulations! You also have probably not worked a part-time job where people would barter with you for ice cream, or where customers would complain and try to get discounts on their food because "it's so expensive~ I can go to the grocery store and get it for half the price."

Fox wrote:

soomin wrote:

It's not about despising workers ...

Just because I realize that not everyone is well-off, does not mean I condone it. I'm living in a world where people have to work minimum wage jobs to get by due to their own personal circumstances. One of my friends was going to college full-time and working two jobs to support herself and her brother. One of my friends was looking forward to the day when he could graduate high school, leave Baskin Robbins, and move up by being a construction worker, because then he would really be able to support his mom and siblings. I worked with a mother and daughter team, and with many others. I guess if everyone were rich and only those pursuing expensive college-degrees were working non-career jobs, then no one would mind paying $50 for a pizza. I, unfortunately, live in the real world, and trying to explain that world to someone with no grip on reality is a waste of time. I'm out.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject:

soomin wrote:

Fox wrote:

soomin wrote:

First of all, most is not a universal word.

Soomin, "most teens" was not what I was denying the universality of. Seriously, these posts are getting long enough without you pissing away word count through misunderstandings.

soomin wrote:

Also, not everyone has two parents, or two parents who are earning money.

My solution to that is state-provided financial assistance. Your solution, evidently, is child labor. Splendid.

soomin wrote:

I really respected my coworkers who were helping their family, but apparently, they should just be sitting at home?

1) I don't care who you respect.

2) They shouldn't be sitting at home doing nothing, they should be studying and improving themselves. Perhaps some sort of apprenticeship program could qualify for this sort of self-improvement, but flipping burgers at McDonald's assuredly does not.

soomin wrote:

And what about the parents who are making minimum wage?

They are in large part the victims of the social paradigm you are here acting as an apologist for, so I suppose I am the one who ought to be asking you that question, not the reverse. Seriously, highlighting the victims of the system you're here supporting is not an effective debate strategy. Save the word count next time.

soomin wrote:

I don't know what kind of dream world you're living in, but you don't seem to be connected to reality.

You are fundamentally -- and I suspect intentionally -- misunderstanding the nature of this discussion. This is a discussion about how things should be, not how things are.

soomin wrote:

Fox wrote:

soomin wrote:

Other teens do it because their parents want them to learn responsibility.

Who is out of touch with reality now? That year spent flipping burgers and scrubbing toilets and McDonald's is not going to be adding serious shine to your resume, and it's not going to teach you anything about how business actually works beyond, "Do what your told," a lesson which students spend 12+ years learning already in the classroom environment.

soomin wrote:

Fox wrote:

soomin wrote:

Still others do it because they are saving up for/ are in college and are paying their own way.

Only the college-bound are "exceptional" enough to be given the gift of flipping burgers?

So are you distorting my case here, or are you misunderstanding it? Perhaps some of both. Let's impress some clarity upon you:

1) Maintaining a household is a necessity of life, and a family ought not to be required to rely upon the labor of their children to succeed in this endeavor in a developed, first world country. Thus, I deny the validity of child labor as a source of household maintenance; such a status quo is a bandaid solution at best, and ought to be despised and rectified by society as a whole (and arguably it's not even a bandaid, since parents being fired and their children being hired more cheaply is something which can serve to inflame the core problem in question).

2) A university education is not a necessity of life, and thus, the notion of an exceptional youth working to save up money towards this laudable end is a tolerable one.

It's not about rewarding anyone with the experience of flipping burgers. Is that so hard to grasp?

soomin wrote:

They already pay. The problem isn't that people aren't willing to pay, it's that what they pay ends up in the wrong hands. The fact that you keep bringing up the cost of ingredients implies to me that you're just plain confused about this issue. This is about a more fair distribution of business profits, favoring those who actually create value rather than those who rent seek. Read that sentence again and again and again. And this isn't simply limited to the restaurant business; American workers in a variety of industries are fleeced of the value they produce by the owning class. You're ultimately supporting this with your rhetoric. I am arguing against it.

soomin wrote:

Just because I realize that not everyone is well-off, does not mean I condone it.

Cease the disingenuity. You are not simply here telling me about how things are. You are actively making a case for the status quo. You are acting as an apologist for it. If you don't condone it, then you are contradicting that which is in your heart. More likely you know you're wrong deep down, but you're one of those people, who think that acknowledging the flawed nature of our society but explaining why it "has to be that way," makes you wise and mature. It doesn't. It makes you a dupe.

soomin wrote:

I guess if everyone were rich and only those pursuing expensive college-degrees were working non-career jobs, then no one would mind paying $50 for a pizza.

The $50 pizza is a strawman, and a lame one at that. Nothing I've described would require this.

soomin wrote:

I, unfortunately, live in the real world, and trying to explain that world to someone with no grip on reality is a waste of time.

It's awfully stupid to talk about "how it is" to someone who is articulating "how it should be," most especially when the man in question's case regarding "how it should be," has already explicitly acknowledged, "how it is." So spare me the "keepin' it real" rubbish, because it misses the point entirely.

soomin wrote:

One of my friends ... One of my friends ... I worked ...

And now it all comes clear. It's all about you you you. God forbid society is improved so that other people don't have to go through the same thing. Typical peasant attitude, which is a shame in a society where peasantry ought to have been long ago abolished.

soomin wrote:

I'm out.

You were never really in. All this talk of $50 pizzas and attempts to "explain" things I already acknowledged but condemned were not salient.

12ax7

Joined: 07 Nov 2009

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:56 am Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Fox wrote:

It's almost as if staffing fast food restaurants with ill-paid, poorly-treated adults and immature, irresponsible teenagers is not conducive to excellent results. No one could have predicted this.

True, but what else are those kinds of people supposed to do for work?

And I don't think you can pay people $16 an hour to flip pizzas and make it economically viable.

That's apparently what they do in some parts of Alberta, I hear. It's because in those places they are competing with oil jobs for employees.

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:03 am Post subject:

Soomin is an apologist for the status quo in every thread she posts in. The only time she's not is when she calls for more police enforcement of pot and public drunkenness.

12ax7 wrote:

Steelrails wrote:

Fox wrote:

It's almost as if staffing fast food restaurants with ill-paid, poorly-treated adults and immature, irresponsible teenagers is not conducive to excellent results. No one could have predicted this.

True, but what else are those kinds of people supposed to do for work?

And I don't think you can pay people $16 an hour to flip pizzas and make it economically viable.

That's apparently what they do in some parts of Alberta, I hear. It's because in those places they are competing with oil jobs for employees.

While I don't think the situations are directly comparable, Australia is doing pretty well these days with a minimum wage of $15.59 for those age twenty and above ($16.17 US), fwiw.

crisdean

Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Location: Seoul Special City

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:16 am Post subject:

northway wrote:

While I don't think the situations are directly comparable, Australia is doing pretty well these days with a minimum wage of $15.59 for those age twenty and above ($16.17 US), fwiw.

So you're telling me that some dumb as shit high school dropout could make around 30k a year working at a starbucks full time pouring coffee?
Then why are any Aussies working here in Korea? Because surely a college educated Roo would be making significantly more than minimum wage, right?

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:17 am Post subject:

Quote:

In many cases, I suspect the ill-paid, poorly treated adults would better perform if simply paid better and afforded some respect.

That's incredibly naive. Many of those people lack a basic work ethic and could care less. You could pay them great and they'd still feel they weren't getting enough and would follow the natural human impulse to be lazy and abuse the system.

Quote:

So then we have pizzas that cost incredibly large amounts and we would have people complaining about the price and saying that the restaurant was ripping off the customers.

As someone who was responsible for tracking the books at a pizza place, labor is a significant cost. If you doubled labor costs, many pizza places would cease to be economically viable and you would have the employees making more money than the owner, the person who assumes all the liability and made the initial investment.

Part of wages and economics is ideology, but part of it is basic math. Saying things like "just pay people more and treat them with respect" is faith-based dogma, not observable fact.

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:22 am Post subject:

crisdean wrote:

northway wrote:

While I don't think the situations are directly comparable, Australia is doing pretty well these days with a minimum wage of $15.59 for those age twenty and above ($16.17 US), fwiw.

Making more but with a much higher cost of living, I'm guessing. An Australian might be able to better enlighten us on the matter, but if you're trying to say I'm wrong: http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/national-minimum-wage/pages/default.aspx.

Dodge7

Joined: 21 Oct 2011

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:42 am Post subject:

northway wrote:

crisdean wrote:

northway wrote:

While I don't think the situations are directly comparable, Australia is doing pretty well these days with a minimum wage of $15.59 for those age twenty and above ($16.17 US), fwiw.

wow Australia rocks! I would stay there and pour coffee at Starbucks before coming here. No doubt.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject:

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

In many cases, I suspect the ill-paid, poorly treated adults would better perform if simply paid better and afforded some respect.

A ridiculously offensive slander against the working classes. While it's impossible to deny that some small proportion of individuals (and this is hardly limited to the economic lower classes) are predisposed towards such jackassery, the average adult wants to achieve; people are generally good. Pay the average fellow a decent wage and treat them like a fellow human being (instead of a replacable tool), and they're not going to be acting out. This isn't based on naivete, it's based on an understanding of my fellow man. No one likes being treated like garbage, and unsuprisingly, when people are subjected to conditions they don't like, they begin to act out.

Steelrails wrote:

Quote:

So then we have pizzas that cost incredibly large amounts and we would have people complaining about the price and saying that the restaurant was ripping off the customers.

I find it interesting that you respond to my complaint about an aspect of the Walmart economy (workers being paid abusively-low wages and being treated like disposable tools) with another aspect of the Walmart economy (people growing angry at the notion of paying enough for goods and services to actually support domestic production). That said, this is irrelevant: America already produces enough economic activity to pay all its workers a living wage. As I said to Soomin, this is about people being awarded a fair share of the value they are already producing. This requires abandoning the mindset that ownership is intrinsically virtuous, and focusing instead on rewarding labor.

Steelrails wrote:

you would have the employees making more money than the owner, the person who assumes all the liability and made the initial investment.

1) Plenty of legal chicanery exists to protect owners from "all the liability." Hell, ever hear of an LLC?

2) Regarding Investment: I am not insensitive to how investment operates, but simultaneously, you're essentially just displaying for me here the precise mindset I'm condeming: the mindset that ownership is more worthy than labor; that those who possess capital are more deserving of reward than those who work to create the value with which they can be rewarded.

Steelrails wrote:

Part of wages and economics is ideology, but part of it is basic math. Saying things like "just pay people more and treat them with respect" is faith-based dogma, not observable fact.

You must have lived either a very sheltered or a very depressing life if you've never had opportunity to observe the fact that most people will perform better if treated reasonably well. Most people crave respect to at least some degree, and affording them a reasonable measure of it is a powerful incentivizer. You can sophistically deny this if you want in order to cling to your point, but we both know that I'm correct, so can't we just cut past the games?

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject:

northway wrote:

crisdean wrote:

northway wrote:

While I don't think the situations are directly comparable, Australia is doing pretty well these days with a minimum wage of $15.59 for those age twenty and above ($16.17 US), fwiw.

Clearly our dear Steelrails and his spunky kid sister Soomin need to go and have a chat with the Australian people about their naive pursuit of an economic impossibility.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject:

Quote:

people are generally good. Pay the average fellow a decent wage and treat them like a fellow human being (instead of a replacable tool), and they're not going to be acting out.

Why do you believe this?

Don't you know the story of "Give a Mouse a Cookie". People are going to try and take advantage of whatever they can.

And if what you were saying is true, then the richest 1% of Americans and other wealthy peoples would be the most generous and law-abiding and surely not do things like pursue Ponzi-schemes, engage in insider trading, and start illegal wars for oil.

Quote:

That said, this is irrelevant: America already produces enough economic activity to pay all its workers a living wage. As I said to Soomin, this is about people being awarded a fair share of the value they are already producing. This requires abandoning the mindset that ownership is intrinsically virtuous, and focusing instead on rewarding labor.

But rewarding ownership often is rewarding labor. For example, someone who works as a plumber, saves their money and works long hours, then uses that money to open their own plumbing business, shouldn't they earn money in proportion to the labor they put in?

The owner is producing the property that the business operates out of, the equipment necessary to run it, the raw materials to make the finished products, the liability, the certifications and licenses, the advertising, etc. etc. Not to mention if the laborer does anything wrong, it is often the owner who will be held responsible.

Labor is slapping a piece of meat between two buns (and often the owner is right along there as well). Tell me who did more labor?

Quote:

Plenty of legal chicanery exists to protect owners from "all the liability." Hell, ever hear of an LLC?

And yet ownership and corporations still face stiff legal penalties time and time again.

Quote:

I'm condeming: the mindset that ownership is more worthy than labor; that those who possess capital are more deserving of reward than those who work to create the value with which they can be rewarded.

On the contrary, I think ownership is deserving of the labor it puts in, which is dramatically more than someone walking off the street and assembling Whoppers or pizzas.

Quote:

You must have lived either a very sheltered or a very depressing life if you've never had opportunity to observe the fact that most people will perform better if treated reasonably well.

Uh, no, I worked at a fast food place for 10 years, and as a full-on manager for 4. Sorry, but it doesn't matter how much you pay and respect people, some people will just do whatever suits them.

Why? Because almost all people fall victim to this most common and basic human frailty- They believe that they are in the right in a given situation. Theft, Laziness, Rudeness, Recklessness, all of this happens even to the best paid employees. Heck, even the owner does those things sometimes.

Quote:

Most people crave respect to at least some degree, and affording them a reasonable measure of it is a powerful incentivizer.

The problem is that the food industry doesn't just revolve around the respect between the owner and the employee. It also revolves around the respect between the employee and the customer. Now, you can have all the respect between the owner and the employee in the world, but you can't control the respect between the customer and the employee. And if an employee feels disrespected by a customer, the potential exists for unprofessional behavior.

Also, since human beings often disagree on what constitutes "respect", it is impossible to make norms of "respect" on owners. One person's respect is another person's disrespect. It's not universal.

Quote:

but we both know that I'm correct, so can't we just cut past the games?

No, you're not. I worked in the industry. You can get good crews and bad crews. It is not dependent on wages or "respect". It is dependent on the work ethic and individual ethical values of the employees and especially the leadership of those on the premises at the moment.

If you had worked in the industry you'd know the phenomenon of "Day-shift/Night-shift" wars and stuff that happens. You can take the same restaurant, same wages, same ownership, same respect and have two completely different outcomes. One shift can be professional and highly motivated. The other shift can be completely dysfunctional.

Remember that ownership and wages aren't the only thing going on in restaurants. There are other dynamics as well, many of them social or sexual.

You're argument about respecting labor and paying wages is meaningless if there is a love triangle amongst the employees or "stoners vs. straight-edge". You can control the money, you can't control the sex.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject:

Fox wrote:

northway wrote:

crisdean wrote:

northway wrote:

While I don't think the situations are directly comparable, Australia is doing pretty well these days with a minimum wage of $15.59 for those age twenty and above ($16.17 US), fwiw.

Clearly our dear Steelrails and his spunky kid sister Soomin need to go and have a chat with the Australian people about their naive pursuit of an economic impossibility.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-01/fair-work-increases-minimum-wage/4046618

Well it appears that they have to raise the minimum wage because people are struggling, even though their minimum wage was considerably higher than the U.S.

Looking at cost of living and some prices in Australia, then you can see that it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Now, I'll be the first to agree that this site doesn't strike me as the most accurate, but if these prices are anything close to accurate, that high minimum wage ends up getting eaten by high costs and minimum wage earners there seem like they're ending up living like minimum wage earners in the U.S.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Australia

Didn't this happen in Australia?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io_HLVYN37s

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