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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| ghostrider wrote: |
According to wikipedia:
"Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner." |
So, it sounds like it's quite easy for the average citizen to walk into a gun show and buy a gun... with limited to no wait time and BG check.
As to my original question - sure does sound quite different than the process in Canada, does it not? |
see above posts...even though the states may have no laws themselves restricting gun sale....it would appear they are still subject to FEDERAL law (which is a whole different kettle of fish). |
The point is, it seems to be totally different in the ease of purchase of a gun. period.
Or, are you saying you can walk into a flea market in Canada and pick up a rifle, easy peasy? |
I'm saying we don't have enough info to make an accurate decision. But from what I've seen as long as you have your PAL there doesn't seem to be much difference between Canada and America in terms of ease of buying a gun. (it may be easier in some states) No I doubt you can get them at a flea market (then again I've never tried). But you can just go to a gun shop and get one there.
As a Canadian who's possessed more than one valid PAL and firearms...I can tell you from personal experience that neither are a particularly onerous task...unless they've changed the rules since I last went through them.
And given the scrapping of the long gun registry it doesn't look to be getting any harder. |
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Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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But that's the point... in Canada you need PAL certification and such, in the US you can walk into a gun show and buy one.
Seriously, you don't see the difference there? |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-massacre-james-holmes-175000087.html
back on topic, the guy looks crazy. What a terrible dye job on the hair. It looks like they have him doped up on something in the video. |
I believe he was acting today. A few days before he shot all those people he was having beers in his area and acting normal. I dislike using the language of psychology, but he is in my estimation (no psy exp or education) a sociopath. He does not give a damn about what he did and is acting up to avoid the death penalty.
Or maybe the cops medicated him? I doubt that they did that before a court appearance. No. We're looking at a deranged mind trying to avoid death. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-massacre-james-holmes-175000087.html
back on topic, the guy looks crazy. What a terrible dye job on the hair. It looks like they have him doped up on something in the video. |
I believe he was acting today. A few days before he shot all those people he was having beers in his area and acting normal. I dislike using the language of psychology, but he is in my estimation (no psy exp or education) a sociopath. He does not give a damn about what he did and is acting up to avoid the death penalty.
Or maybe the cops medicated him? I doubt that they did that before a court appearance. No. We're looking at a deranged mind trying to avoid death. |
Wouldn't surprise me if they medicated him because they were worried he might do something, or say something, really really crazy. He looks doped up to me. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
But that's the point... in Canada you need PAL certification and such, in the US you can walk into a gun show and buy one.
Seriously, you don't see the difference there? |
PAL certification is no big deal though...seriously anyone of legal age and with 2 brain cells to rub together can get it and pretty quickly to boot.
| Quote: |
| Firearms Training affiliated instructors conduct Canadian Safety Courses (CFSC) and Exams. After the course, students will be able to comfortably and safely handle a wide variety of firearms, and will be familiar with current laws. In most provinces the Canadian Firearms Safety Course Exam(s) must be passed in order to get a Possession and Acquisition Licence - the actual course is optional. |
Yeah without PAL it's easier for Americans in some states to buy weapons. WITH PAL there's not much difference. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
But that's the point... in Canada you need PAL certification and such, in the US you can walk into a gun show and buy one.
Seriously, you don't see the difference there? |
PAL certification is no big deal though...seriously anyone of legal age and with 2 brain cells to rub together can get it and pretty quickly to boot.
| Quote: |
| Firearms Training affiliated instructors conduct Canadian Safety Courses (CFSC) and Exams. After the course, students will be able to comfortably and safely handle a wide variety of firearms, and will be familiar with current laws. In most provinces the Canadian Firearms Safety Course Exam(s) must be passed in order to get a Possession and Acquisition Licence - the actual course is optional. |
Yeah without PAL it's easier for Americans in some states to buy weapons. WITH PAL there's not much difference. |
Two things:
1) I think you're making too little of something like PAL (which seems to be the same thing as FID cards in the States). Yes, it's easy to get, but it adds a layer of scrutiny. Consider that you need a license to drive a car in every US state, but you can go and buy a gun without any such license in the majority of states.
2) "Some states" ultimately means all states, as there are no residency requirements to buy a gun in a given state. As such, though my home state of Massachuetts has fairly stringent gun laws, it's easy to just pop on over the border to the libertarian Mecca of New Hampshire if you want to get around those regulations. Most places in the country will have a state with more lenient gun policies within easy driving distance for those who wish to avoid scrutiny. Basically, I think you can discard the "some states" and just say that it's easier for Americans to buy guns, period.
New Hampshire gun laws, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Hampshire. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I think a lot of liberals are more wary of city-life -- and most especially the parts of cities inhabited by the extremely poor -- than is immediately evident, but have been bullied into silence on the matter. Hell, even talking about statistical truths without being bombarded with accusations of racism is difficult. |
I realize this is going off-topic, but what do you mean? If you simply mean that the stereotype of liberals being from urban areas and pro-cities might be overblown, ok, sure. You seem to be trying to make a bigger point though. That more liberals might be critical of city conditions but have been shot down by others (including fellow liberals)? Or what exactly?
I'm just curious since I am a fairly liberal person living in a quickly gentrfying city.  |
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
I realize this is going off-topic, but what do you mean? If you simply mean that the stereotype of liberals being from urban areas and pro-cities might be overblown, ok, sure. You seem to be trying to make a bigger point though. That more liberals might be critical of city conditions but have been shot down by others (including fellow liberals)? Or what exactly? |
Well, let me give you a vague example. I'm a quite liberal fellow myself. I've openly acknowledged statistical truths about certain areas of the city -- we all know what these areas are -- being atypically dangerous because of the people who live there. I've been accused of racism for doing so. Now I'm the sort of individual who is inclined to say what he thinks with minimum regard to the social consequences. Plenty of people lack such boldness, and as such, they keep their mouths shut for fear of the consequences. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
[q
Two things:
1) I think you're making too little of something like PAL (which seems to be the same thing as FID cards in the States). Yes, it's easy to get, but it adds a layer of scrutiny. Consider that you need a license to drive a car in every US state, but you can go and buy a gun without any such license in the majority of states.
2) "Some states" ultimately means all states, as there are no residency requirements to buy a gun in a given state. As such, though my home state of Massachuetts has fairly stringent gun laws, it's easy to just pop on over the border to the libertarian Mecca of New Hampshire if you want to get around those regulations. Most places in the country will have a state with more lenient gun policies within easy driving distance for those who wish to avoid scrutiny. Basically, I think you can discard the "some states" and just say that it's easier for Americans to buy guns, period.
New Hampshire gun laws, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_New_Hampshire. |
2 things.
1. I've done the PAL stuff...trust me it is as simple as I've said. You don't even have to take the course...just the exam. Some true/false questions and some multiple choice. Then a short practical exam consisting of showing you know how to handle the firearm and you are done. Anyone who's comfortable with firearms should be able to ace both parts without ever cracking a book. It may well add an extra layer of scrutiny but it's still fairly laughable (IMO)
2. [quote"Most places in the country will have a state with more lenient gun policies within easy driving distance for those who wish to avoid scrutiny"[/quote]
I'd bet I could take the exam and spend far less effort (and money) then someone does driving to another state (where he or she may or may not be familiar with and know how to get around and where to go.)
Not sure how having to drive to another state and then all the way back makes it easier. Sure if you have legal issues then it might be easier to obtain a firearm but I was under the impression we were discussing legal means solely.
Now if you mean Americans can get a gun FASTER overall for the FIRST TIME then I'd agree since a FIRST TIME Canadian gun buyer must wait 28 days.
But AFTER you have the PAL and have bought your first gun...there's no waiting period. You can just pop on down to the local gun shop and buy another one as opposed to driving all the way to another state.
So with PAL (after you have bought your first firearm) I stand by my statement that there is not much difference. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not arguing with you on this one, just contributing.
Okay, that test sounds kind of useless, agreed. Can you walk into a gun shop and take the test, or is it like getting a driver's license?
I do think you're overestimating what driving to a different state entails, though. There are five states within an hour drive of my parents' house, not including the state it's in.
On edit, in response to the acquisition by legal means argument: the gun control argument is that the loopholes and legal grey areas need to be fixed, while the gun lobby is typically against any further restrictions on guns. Therefore, being able to drive over a state line and be subject to more lax gun laws needs to be part of the conversation.
Last edited by northway on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:06 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I was beginning to think the Dave's anti-black rhetoric wouldn't show up on time, but the last couple of pages proved that while that train may be late, it does always show up.
As for guns and gun control, the more I live here the less pro-gun I get. The sheer fact that I have zero fear of non North Korean guns causing me pain and suffering is certainly a relief. It's nice knowing that if an argument ensues, while someone may grab a weapon, at least they won't draw a gun.
Now if I was back in America, my attitude might change.
But the whole notion of having to guns to fight off your government or to dissuade invasion by a foreign power, in the American context, strikes me as more and more ludicrous. Seriously, no country on Earth could set an army on continental American soil and last more than a few days. The Atlantic and Pacific guarantee our safety and its more likely that Mexico and Canada would go to war with each other than with the U.S.
As for the government, really? The government would get bought out before it would get military couped. A simple strike paralyzing commerce would be more effective than a bunch of rag-tag militia types setting off bombs and running around with AR-15s.
We don't need a militia, haven't in 100 years. Heck the militia has been little more than an excuse to get drunk, shoot some guns (great combination) and award people some titles since about 1850. In the Civil War the militias proved to be little more than funneling grounds to the Volunteer Armies or a place to go and be a draft dodger. In the past people had to turn in their guns when they entered a city. That was seen as reasonable.
Now, on the other hand, if one is expected to furnish their own arms in order to be part of the militia (as antiquated and ludicrous as the notion is at the present), then that would mean that assault rifles and 30 rd. capacity magazines would be acceptable. As a supplementary defense force, sending the militia into battle with single shot hunting rifles would end up with a bunch of fleeing and dead militia men. As for heavy weaponry, in the past artillery pieces and such were often furnished to militia units and were organized by the state governments or municipalities so that would take care of citizens buying tanks and heavy weaponry.
Also the utility of regulating "Assault Style" weapons and high-capacity magazines is dubious at best. Someone mentioned that 100 rd. capacity magazines were military issue, I'd imagine for M-16s and the like they are not, because they are prone to jamming and seem inappropriate for trained soldiers with fire discipline. In fact there may have been fewer deaths because the shooter, Mr. Holmes, used a high capacity drum magazine which reports indicate jammed. As to what constitutes an "Assault Weapon", in the eyes of the hysterical public it means anything that looks "military". Unfortunately that means little in terms of its actually capabilities. Is the rifle any less deadly because its stock is wood and not black metal/polymer?
I don't know, my feelings have become less strong on this issue, now I just want the idiocy on both sides to end. I cringe when people scream about needing guns in case the Chicoms invade or to prevent the NWO takeover and I cringe when I hear people talk about banning high capacity magazines or "Assault Weapons" as though that would stop things, often these people can't even define basic types of guns and how they operate.
But I do find myself less and less persuaded by the argument that everyone should be armed. All that's going to do is get 50 idiots accidentally shooting the wrong person and a bunch of children and old folks caught in the crossfire. Seriously, a bunch of people shooting in a crowded dark movie theater filled with children? |
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Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Now if you mean Americans can get a gun FASTER overall for the FIRST TIME then I'd agree since a FIRST TIME Canadian gun buyer must wait 28 days.
But AFTER you have the PAL and have bought your first gun...there's no waiting period. You can just pop on down to the local gun shop and buy another one as opposed to driving all the way to another state.
So with PAL (after you have bought your first firearm) I stand by my statement that there is not much difference. |
To me, that's a notable difference.
1 being that you MUSt go through BG checks and a test to purchase a gun (plus a month's wait your first time)
vs.
2 walking into a gun show and buying one right away. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Now if you mean Americans can get a gun FASTER overall for the FIRST TIME then I'd agree since a FIRST TIME Canadian gun buyer must wait 28 days.
But AFTER you have the PAL and have bought your first gun...there's no waiting period. You can just pop on down to the local gun shop and buy another one as opposed to driving all the way to another state.
So with PAL (after you have bought your first firearm) I stand by my statement that there is not much difference. |
To me, that's a notable difference.
1 being that you MUSt go through BG checks and a test to purchase a gun (plus a month's wait your first time)
vs.
2 walking into a gun show and buying one right away. |
I did qualify that by stating that IF you had your PAL and had already bought your first firearm that THEN there is not that much difference. You can get the PAL at 16 (that was when I got it (and it was actually called a FAC back then).
I doubt there are that many 16 year old American boys going to gun shows and buying one right away.
So if we are talking about adults...the typical Canadian male who buys firearms already probably got his PAL long ago and thus has no need to wait...just like his American male counterpart. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Location: Retired
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