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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: subject verb agreement question (with latter) |
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Aging is important because the latter (depend/depends) on transmitted information.
Here is my question: If "the latter" is referring to a plural subject, which is the correct answer (depend/depends)? None of my references give an example of this, and I've found conflicting "opinions" on the net.
Thanks if you can shed the light on this one. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Where does it say "aging" is plural?
Playing are fun?
All your base are belong to us.
Last edited by YTMND on Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Your sentence doesn't make any sense. You only use 'the latter' if you are referring to the last of two or more nouns but in your sentence there's only one noun so you'd use 'it' What was the original sentence in its entirety? |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Sorry - that sentence was a bad example for my question. Latter was referring to a plural noun in the previous sentence (so I was told).
Would that be possible?
Anyway, imagine the following:
~.....[Noun 1] and [Plural Noun 2] because the latter (depend/depends)
on ~.
In that structure, does the agreement go with "the latter" (depends)
or with [Plural noun 2] (depend)?
Thanks for the replies. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Anyway, imagine the following: |
Can you give us an example sentence? You are using "latter" to refer to the plural noun so it would still be "depends". It's like a pronoun, "he/she" (is) or "they" (are).
I am not seeing where you are going with it. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Which do you think I should use to kill him - this gun or some knives, because the latter depend on availability? I always have the gun here in my pocket, but I'd have to borrow the knives. |
That is the best I could think of at the moment.
I think you'd use plural because "the latter" refers to a plural noun...
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| Either the boy or those girls stole the book. The former looks like a thief. The latter look too cute to have done it. |
That would seem to be a somewhat similar principle.
The former or the latter is an either/or construction. If it were an "and" construction, you'd always use the plural (depend) because you'd always be referring back to more than 1 thing.
But with an either/or construction - 1 item could be singluar and the other plural - like in the example above. Looks for "the boy" and look for "those girls"... |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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I guess the test to see which is correct (depend or depends) is to substitute the referred to noun for "the later":
| Quote: |
| Which do you think I should use to kill him - this gun or some knives, because the latter depend on availability? I always have the gun here in my pocket, but I'd have to borrow the knives. |
| Quote: |
| ...because the knives depend on availability. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies.
Thanks, iggyb - yes - those examples illustrate what I was trying to express.
Thanks a lot. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| But it is "the latter". "The latter" is always singular. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: |
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YTMND wrote:
| Quote: |
| But it is "the latter". "The latter" is always singular. |
iggy wrote
| Quote: |
| Which do you think I should use to kill him - this gun or some knives, because the latter depend on availability? |
| Quote: |
| Either the boy or those girls stole the book. The former looks like a thief. The latter look too cute to have done it. |
Then you would say that both of the above sentences are incorrect, and
"depends" and "looks" should be used? |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| But it is "the latter". "The latter" is always singular. |
Say what? |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| But it is "the latter". "The latter" is always singular. |
Say what? |
Say what?
Have you ever heard of the Eiffel towers?
HINT: The word "the" implies singular, believe it or not. |
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schwa
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Yap
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| HINT: The word "the" implies singular, believe it or not. |
Learn something new every day. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| But it is "the latter". "The latter" is always singular. |
Say what? |
Say what?
Have you ever heard of the Eiffel towers?
HINT: The word "the" implies singular, believe it or not. |
Not. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:17 am Post subject: |
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First, who wants to know the answer and why?
Korean adults are obsessed with grammar to the point of it hampering their practice with the language and emphasis on fluency over accuracy. It is a primary stumbling block to the whole nation's improvement in overall English competence.
Unless they want an answer as part of preparation for a specific test that has meaning in their lives, I'd tell them repeatedly that --- it doesn't matter. Use either one and nobody will give a rat's @ss.
Just look here. You have college-educated native speakers who have taught the language to foreigners and we can't agree or speak with 100% certainity. And grammar rules do change over long periods of time, believe it or not.
Anyway, on the always being singluar, I would need to see some more on that. A quick google seems to say otherwise:
| Quote: |
Definite article
A definite article indicates that its noun is a particular one (or ones) identifiable to the listener. It may be something that the speaker has already mentioned, or it may be something uniquely specified. The definite article in English, for both singular and plural nouns, is the.
Example: The children know the fastest way home. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_(grammar)
The apples falls from the sky. -- The apples fall from the sky.
The dogs is barking. -- The dogs are barking.
The first in each doesn't sound right.
I would think the substitution drill to check agreement would work here: The latter is acting as a pronoun substituting for knives in my original. If you replace it with knives, the verb should agree and be plural...
I could be wrong, but I'd need to see a reference... |
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