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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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 Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
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| Most of the time the message isn't that these are common problems, the message is that as foreigners our countries are guilty too so we should just sit down and shut up. It's ridiculous. |
Actually if you look at the threads here, most of the time the thread is written as:
Why do Koreans do X?
When X is a behaviour or issue just as or more prevalent in many other places.
Let's make it about something non-controversial.
If we said:
Why do Koreans eat with chopsticks?
do you think anyone would hesitate to bring up other Asian countries that also eat with chopsticks?
Of course not, it's hardly a unique behaviour, it's extremely prevalent elsewhere, and relevant to the discussion. Using chopsticks is not a unique behaviour to Koreans.
There are very few behaviours or situations that Koreans have the market cornered on. So the legitimate question is instead: Why do people do X?
When you pointlessly make discussions about common human behaviours about race, you're a racist. It's very simple. |
There are many issues plaguing the world. Corruption, poverty, racism, discrimination - just to name a few. If you move to Thailand, you can bring up poverty, then others will start pointing fingers at other countries (or especially the country of the person who brought up the issue). Just as common is the practice of bringing up a country that has the exact same problem, or a country where the same problem is even worse. The idea is to mitigate the extent of the problem locally - after all, it is much worse elsewhere.
Nations where the the issue at hand has been dealt with are seldom brought up, or if they are brought up, people start to point at other nations in defense. It would appear that as long as several other nations/people have similar, or worse problems, there is no need to admit that the problem is real and/or significant.
By the way.... I'm really not sure what chopsticks have to do with anything. Chopsticks are well known to be the key to winning gold in Olympic archery. Chopsticks and Kimchi^^
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/30/us-oly-arch-fingers-idUSBRE86T12A20120730 |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
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There are many issues plaguing the world. Corruption, poverty, racism, discrimination - just to name a few. If you move to Thailand, you can bring up poverty, then others will start pointing fingers at other countries (or especially the country of the person who brought up the issue)... |
And why shouldn't they?
Let's take two countries Korea and the U.S.A and look at a common problem affecting them...say racism.
It would be hypocritical for a Korean citizen to come to the U.S and complain about racism there while not actively engaged in KOREA to combat racism there.
By the same token it is just as hypocritical for an American citizen to complain about racism in Korea while not actively engaged in America to combat racism there.
But what is a more significant objection and brings me back to the first line of my post...is that neither person is a citizen of the country they are complaining about...thus their scope for effecting real change is practically nil. It makes more sense for them to focus on their own country as at least they have a voice there as well as family and friends and can more easily find/organize like-minded people.
Plus let's face it...for all the venting on Dave's what has actually changed here?
Things (in terms of employment) have actually gotten worse overall. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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There are many issues plaguing the world. Corruption, poverty, racism, discrimination - just to name a few. If you move to Thailand, you can bring up poverty, then others will start pointing fingers at other countries (or especially the country of the person who brought up the issue). Just as common is the practice of bringing up a country that has the exact same problem, or a country where the same problem is even worse. The idea is to mitigate the extent of the problem locally - after all, it is much worse elsewhere.
Nations where the the issue at hand has been dealt with are seldom brought up, or if they are brought up, people start to point at other nations in defense. It would appear that as long as several other nations/people have similar, or worse problems, there is no need to admit that the problem is real and/or significant.
By the way.... I'm really not sure what chopsticks have to do with anything. Chopsticks are well known to be the key to winning gold in Olympic archery. Chopsticks and Kimchi^^
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/30/us-oly-arch-fingers-idUSBRE86T12A20120730 |
no, it's about correctly identifying a problem as being a world problem/human problem rather than being a problem specific to the country in question.
Is it a problem? Probably
is it unique to that country/race that it needs singling out as such? unlikely
It's crazy to talk about chopsticks right? I mean, lots of places use them, why would it be an issue here? Exactly. That's the point. Why single out Korea for using chopsticks when they're prevalent everywhere? It's an example to illustrate a point you can't quite grasp.
What people are saying when they say "Problem X is common in these other places" is that it's a world issue, nothing specific to Korea and trying to shape the discussion as if it was a Korean only problem is essentially racist.
While nations solve different problems at their own pace, Korea's place is not to solve the world's problems, but rarely are the discussions created for that reason. They're inevitably created because someone had a bad day and wants to vent with a racism to make themselves feel better. You want to see the real apologists? It's the same closet racists who always turn up in those threads, who always rush to defend their fellow racists with the same tired argument. Most people here don't shy away from genuine discussion, they take umbrage with people who can't seem to start a discussion without wrapping it in a racist blanket. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And why shouldn't they?
Let's take two countries Korea and the U.S.A and look at a common problem affecting them...say racism.
It would be hypocritical for a Korean citizen to come to the U.S and complain about racism there while not actively engaged in KOREA to combat racism there.
By the same token it is just as hypocritical for an American citizen to complain about racism in Korea while not actively engaged in America to combat racism there.
But what is a more significant objection and brings me back to the first line of my post...is that neither person is a citizen of the country they are complaining about...thus their scope for effecting real change is practically nil. It makes more sense for them to focus on their own country as at least they have a voice there as well as family and friends and can more easily find/organize like-minded people.
Plus let's face it...for all the venting on Dave's what has actually changed here?
Things (in terms of employment) have actually gotten worse overall. |
Yep... and I find that eslcafe debates have yet to improve the global economy - it's surreal, isn't it?^^
Aside from that, I suspect you would have made an excellent lawyer defending white male supremacy in the 1940's.
According to your argument, women should not have stood up for themselves when they were discriminated - after all, they did not actively engage in protesting similar gender discrimination when it comes to hiring nannies/nurses.
The same scenario applies to minorities in USA - how dare Mexicans protest racial discrimination when there is a similar problem in Mexico!
The citizenship bit is an interesting one, I admit. We are temporary workers (for the most part), and our rights are limited. In fact, if we work at public schools, our rights lessened still due to prohibition from partaking in any sort of political activity. Yet, we do have some rights - and we are most certainly allowed to file complaints to various commissions. What is also true is that we are unlikely to see any improvements if we only point at the countries that have same/worse problems than the country we are in, and ignore the countries that have been able to overcome similar issues. The opinions of foreigners living in Korea seem to be very much divided - with a fraction (perhaps even a large segment of foreigner population?) preferring to look at the nations which have same/bigger problems than Korea, rather than look up to nations which have been able to address similar concerns. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
no, it's about correctly identifying a problem as being a world problem/human problem rather than being a problem specific to the country in question.
Is it a problem? Probably
is it unique to that country/race that it needs singling out as such? unlikely
It's crazy to talk about chopsticks right? I mean, lots of places use them, why would it be an issue here? Exactly. That's the point. Why single out Korea for using chopsticks when they're prevalent everywhere? It's an example to illustrate a point you can't quite grasp.
What people are saying when they say "Problem X is common in these other places" is that it's a world issue, nothing specific to Korea and trying to shape the discussion as if it was a Korean only problem is essentially racist.
While nations solve different problems at their own pace, Korea's place is not to solve the world's problems, but rarely are the discussions created for that reason. They're inevitably created because someone had a bad day and wants to vent with a racism to make themselves feel better. You want to see the real apologists? It's the same closet racists who always turn up in those threads, who always rush to defend their fellow racists with the same tired argument. Most people here don't shy away from genuine discussion, they take umbrage with people who can't seem to start a discussion without wrapping it in a racist blanket. |
You will find that most topics here are based on the problems encountered in Korea because..... most people posting here are in Korea. If someone specifically says that the discussed problem is unique to Korea - that's wrong and then bringing up comparisons which would highlight the existence of similar problem elsewhere makes perfect sense, and I do not have an issue with that.
At the same time, when people bring up the problems they've encountered in Korea, it is common for a number of people here to presuppose that those posters are ignorant in their world views and are unaware that similar problems exist elsewhere. That, I suppose is where the comparisons often begin - and they most often derail the existing discussions. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Most of the time the message isn't that these are common problems, the message is that as foreigners our countries are guilty too so we should just sit down and shut up. It's ridiculous. |
Actually if you look at the threads here, most of the time the thread is written as:
Why do Koreans do X?
When X is a behaviour or issue just as or more prevalent in many other places.
Let's make it about something non-controversial.
If we said:
Why do Koreans eat with chopsticks?
do you think anyone would hesitate to bring up other Asian countries that also eat with chopsticks?
Of course not, it's hardly a unique behaviour, it's extremely prevalent elsewhere, and relevant to the discussion. Using chopsticks is not a unique behaviour to Koreans.
There are very few behaviours or situations that Koreans have the market cornered on. So the legitimate question is instead: Why do people do X?
When you pointlessly make discussions about common human behaviours about race, you're a racist. It's very simple. |
Q. Why do Koreans eat with Chopsticks?
A. A lot of Asian countries eat with chopsticks.
That isn't actually an answer, it's a comparison. That is the problem. Someone is looking for a reason and instead they get the response that it happens in other countries so there is no reason to ask why. A better option would be to give the history of how chopsticks were brought to Korea, etc, maybe you could even toss in the differences between how Korean people typically use chopsticks and people of other Asian countries use them.
On more complex topics like suicide or sexism it's just a cop out. Stating that suicide occurs in other countries too, so there is nothing to see here it just avoiding the issue. And if you you look at the causes in the USA and those in Korea you will find some similarities and some differences. There really is no need to take it as an insult if someone asks on a forum why so many Koreans are committing suicide (although I think it's in very bad taste if someone just brings it up bluntly around a Korean person). People come here, get frustrated, occasionally get targeted...they are looking for answers.
On immigration, the USA and Korea are totally different in my opinion. If you want to attack the USA for being xenophobic and racist that is fine but it doesn't change the situation in Korea at all. The root of the problems with immigrants is different in both countries, so if you treat them the same you are going to end up with an inadequate solution.
I'm not on Dave's fighting for some change in Korea, I actually don't care too much about what Korea does. I just think it's interesting to discuss. If it gets too bad I'll pack up my bags and leave, but it's a pretty great country so I don't see myself doing that anytime soon.
I understand some people make tasteless and racist comments on here, but we don't all need to be grouped together like that. People get angry and vent too, I think we all slip up from time to time. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And why shouldn't they?
Let's take two countries Korea and the U.S.A and look at a common problem affecting them...say racism.
It would be hypocritical for a Korean citizen to come to the U.S and complain about racism there while not actively engaged in KOREA to combat racism there.
By the same token it is just as hypocritical for an American citizen to complain about racism in Korea while not actively engaged in America to combat racism there.
But what is a more significant objection and brings me back to the first line of my post...is that neither person is a citizen of the country they are complaining about...thus their scope for effecting real change is practically nil. It makes more sense for them to focus on their own country as at least they have a voice there as well as family and friends and can more easily find/organize like-minded people.
Plus let's face it...for all the venting on Dave's what has actually changed here?
Things (in terms of employment) have actually gotten worse overall. |
Yep... and I find that eslcafe debates have yet to improve the global economy - it's surreal, isn't it?^^
Aside from that, I suspect you would have made an excellent lawyer defending white male supremacy in the 1940's.
According to your argument, women should not have stood up for themselves when they were discriminated - after all, they did not actively engage in protesting similar gender discrimination when it comes to hiring nannies/nurses.
The same scenario applies to minorities in USA - how dare Mexicans protest racial discrimination when there is a similar problem in Mexico!
The citizenship bit is an interesting one, I admit. We are temporary workers (for the most part), and our rights are limited. In fact, if we work at public schools, our rights lessened still due to prohibition from partaking in any sort of political activity. Yet, we do have some rights - and we are most certainly allowed to file complaints to various commissions. What is also true is that we are unlikely to see any improvements if we only point at the countries that have same/worse problems than the country we are in, and ignore the countries that have been able to overcome similar issues. The opinions of foreigners living in Korea seem to be very much divided - with a fraction (perhaps even a large segment of foreigner population?) preferring to look at the nations which have same/bigger problems than Korea, rather than look up to nations which have been able to address similar concerns. |
As regards women...nope. They are citizens of the country same as white males so they should have a say in how it is run...which is the case today.
As regards minorities...are they citizens? Then yes they should have an equal voice. But it is specifically to stop people who ARE not citizens and therefore do not have a vested interest in the country that the U.S law stating a president must be born in the U.S was made.
Of course that's not to say they shouldn't have equal human rights. But voting and such activities are restricted to those who are citizens and that is the case in just about any place. Nor do I see what's wrong with that.
Not just public schools but also hakwons and other places. However foreigners CAN vote in local and provincial elections if they have a certain type of F-visa...so it doesn't ban all foreigners. Only in the case of the president.
We are allowed to file complaints but those complaints deal with workplace issues and human rights violations like discrimination.
As far as I know there is no commission set up to give foreigners a say in how things are run here.
Now as to those countries that have been addressing similar concerns. Well we were talking about racism...so can you find ONE country that has successfully addressed the issue of racism (as opposed to simply driving it underground)? |
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Adam Carolla
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Now as to those countries that have been addressing similar concerns. Well we were talking about racism...so can you find ONE country that has successfully addressed the issue of racism (as opposed to simply driving it underground)? |
False pretense. We only need to find countries that have dealt with racism more successfully than Korea (pro tip, there are many.) Nice try though. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| You lost me with the over-the-top CAPS. |
They can be good but I think in Korea in particular they are not comparisons but subtle ad hominem attacks. For example....
NET: Look at this article about suicide in Korea, it's a big problem! Why do you guys think that is?
Ad Hominem Guy: Americans commit suicide too, you have no right to analyze this subject.
Or
NET: Why do Korean people always ask me if I know how to use chopsticks? Sometimes living in this country gets so annoying.
Ad Hominem Guy: Americans ask foreigners in their country redundant questions too, you are American therefore you have no right to discuss this.
Most of the time the message isn't that these are common problems, the message is that as foreigners our countries are guilty too so we should just sit down and shut up. It's ridiculous. It's possible these are problems in both countries, and maybe it's easier to analyze a country when you are looking at it from the outside. I think as a citizen of the USA I can learn a lot about the flaws of my country by talking to Koreans that have visited, and they could also learn a lot from listening to me about my issues in Korea. While living in Korea though I have found the majority of the people are very sensitive about any criticism directed at their country. It's counter-productive. Anytime someone goes on about a problem they have in Korea someone has to jump in and make it a contest about whether or not that foreigner's home country is better than Korea. It usually results in a lot of posters insulting Korea or the West and goes nowhere. Yes, the thread becomes successfully derailed, and the whole discussion reduces itself to personal attacks, which is the ultimate goal of an ad hominem attack. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Often the first post is a legitimate one, like you wrote.
The sad thing is that inevitably after that, someone writes a comment that is either extremely comparative in nature, an outright inaccuracy (although this is often out of ignorance or miscommunication, not deliberate) , or racist. That's when the "usual voices" jump in. You'll notice that they never go into "Apologista Lockdown Condition-1" until that happens. Look at the threads, see where the argument starts to boil over. It is at that point.
What, do you expect people to stay quite when someone says something like "Koreans are nothing more than ignorant farmers in suits"? That's uncalled for, but those things get posted thread after thread.
People want to speak up against racism and call attention to problems in Korea? Apologist posters are speaking up against racism and calling attention to it. And yes, since we're teachers in Korea, it's relevant.
And in case you haven't noticed, every time there has been a clear cut case where someone has been wronged and someone presents things in a mature evenhanded manner, the apologists will be right there supporting them and denouncing bigotry.
That's not to say we don't have our fails. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| You will find that most topics here are based on the problems encountered in Korea because..... most people posting here are in Korea. If someone specifically says that the discussed problem is unique to Korea - that's wrong and then bringing up comparisons which would highlight the existence of similar problem elsewhere makes perfect sense, and I do not have an issue with that. |
Apologist excuse #492. It's okay to single them out and sound racist because we're all here. If we were all in Harlem it'd be okay to comment on some black people eating chicken? It's just where we are right? When you tie the behaviour to something that has nothing to do with the behaviour, like skin color, race, etc. you are a racist.
That's right though, most people are in Korea, and for a lot of people it is their first foray into the real world, but they are, supposedly, educated people. I guess that doesn't really account for much, but you should have some awareness of how people act and do things in the world around you.
| Quote: |
| At the same time, when people bring up the problems they've encountered in Korea, it is common for a number of people here to presuppose that those posters are ignorant in their world views and are unaware that similar problems exist elsewhere. That, I suppose is where the comparisons often begin - and they most often derail the existing discussions. |
I have not seen that many threads brought up there have actually targeted a uniquely Korean behaviour/situation or been brought up as a general "why do people do X?"
If people want to come here and say "Some guy pushed me crossing the street" no problem.
But you don't have to have been here long to see how a thread about that issue would actually be created and how it would evolve. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| Adam Carolla wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Now as to those countries that have been addressing similar concerns. Well we were talking about racism...so can you find ONE country that has successfully addressed the issue of racism (as opposed to simply driving it underground)? |
False pretense. We only need to find countries that have dealt with racism more successfully than Korea (pro tip, there are many.) Nice try though. |
Only he didn't say that.
| Quote: |
| The opinions of foreigners living in Korea seem to be very much divided - with a fraction (perhaps even a large segment of foreigner population?) preferring to look at the nations which have same/bigger problems than Korea, rather than look up to nations which have been able to address similar concerns. |
He quite clearly said they have been able to address similar concerns...he said nothing about "more successfully than Korea." |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| hiamnotcool wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
As for the long term teachers being offered positions of seniority in the public school system in Korea. I am curious to find out which country does offer such positions to foreign workers. If you mean residents, then the requirements would have to be the same as those of a K-teacher: full certification in an actual subject and for the proper level, admissions tests and the added criteria of reasonable Korean proficiency because full time teachers with senior positions deal with parents and have admin duties in their respective schools.
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Hmmm, yeah I can't say I have any information that can be confirmed, just anecdotes from friends that have taught in other countries. I have heard Taiwan and Hong Kong are decent but I don't have any information to back that up. I can't really get into this. |
HK does offer more senior positions...to teachers with full certification and experience and such teachers have far heavier duties than what your average FTs is asked to do in a K-public school as an assistant teacher... |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
He quite clearly said they have been able to address similar concerns...he said nothing about "more successfully than Korea." |
you are right - I should have said 'address similar concerns more successfully than the presently discussed country' |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
Apologist excuse #492. It's okay to single them out and sound racist because we're all here. If we were all in Harlem it'd be okay to comment on some black people eating chicken? It's just where we are right? When you tie the behaviour to something that has nothing to do with the behaviour, like skin color, race, etc. you are a racist.
That's right though, most people are in Korea, and for a lot of people it is their first foray into the real world, but they are, supposedly, educated people. I guess that doesn't really account for much, but you should have some awareness of how people act and do things in the world around you.
I have not seen that many threads brought up there have actually targeted a uniquely Korean behaviour/situation or been brought up as a general "why do people do X?"
If people want to come here and say "Some guy pushed me crossing the street" no problem.
But you don't have to have been here long to see how a thread about that issue would actually be created and how it would evolve. |
So... what are the first 491 apologist excuses? I am curious^^
Are you implying that people should not discuss issues/problems they face here? Or that people that discuss such problems are inherently racist?
By the way, I am talking about real issues. When I talk about Korean media, I'm not saying that media in every other nation is unbiased/non-discriminative. In fact, I keep bringing up fox news, because I know that if I do not, people will start shoving that in my face (hence having to prove I am well aware of the bias issues in the American media). In the end though - I am talking about Korean media - why should I not address it as such?
BTW- I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a 'uniquely Korean behavior/situation'. |
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