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Korea and racism
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TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject:

Mix1 wrote:

First of all, how about dropping the claim that I made that claim.

Quote:

It's great that you have the opposite view of most everyone else out there regarding Koreans and racism, maybe we've all been just been very unlucky and just simply met all the bad ones, and our huge informal, cross referenced random sample is vastly inaccurate and our impressions are 180 degrees backwards from reality, and where there is smoke there really ISN'T fire. Yeah, that's it.

So if you aren't claiming you speak for "most everyone else" then why are you claiming that my views are the opposite to them?
Dude it's right there in black and white what you said. I bolded the relevant parts to aid your reading comprehension.

And not content with that you've now doubled down and done it again.

Quote:

And do you really think he or anyone else cares much if you take their opinions seriously or not? You are overestimating your importance here. Nobody is seeking your approval.

And as to that both you and he obviously DO care enough to reply (you constantly).

As for backtracking no. I'm simply showing how OFE's argument can be easily turned around.

Quote:

I'm guessing the answers are YES, RARELY, and NOT MUCH.

Actually the answers are YES, OFTEN and (very likely) MORE THAN YOU

Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:50 pm Post subject:

[quote="spilot101"][quote="hiamnotcool"]

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

[

If foreign aid is the measure than the USA would probably be the least racist country in the world, and that is laughable.

Not quite, it's not the total amount that really counts, but rather the amount per GDP. In this case, the US is at the bottom of the barrel....

Can you show a study to show that? I'm not sure what qualifies as bottom of the barrel here, but I'm open to that possibility. I still think it's irrelevant to how racist a country is anyway.

When Japan colonized Korea how much "foreign aid" did it provide, how much money did it invest in the country? Was that a sign that Japan wasn't racist? lol

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject:

[quote="hiamnotcool"][quote="spilot101"]

hiamnotcool wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

[

If foreign aid is the measure than the USA would probably be the least racist country in the world, and that is laughable.

Not quite, it's not the total amount that really counts, but rather the amount per GDP. In this case, the US is at the bottom of the barrel....

When Japan colonized Korea Korea became a part of the Empire. Therefore investing money in the country was to benefit the Empire...the local population was very much a secondary concern.

And investment is different from donations. As regards the former people generally expect a return that will eventually be greater than the initial investment. As for donations people generally don't expect much if anything in return.

But again how does providing millions in aid prove Koreans are racist against Japan? Shouldn't they be dancing in the streets and burning Japanese flags when that happened?

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:26 pm Post subject:

Well I don't think racism is the right word anyway, considering they are exactly the same race. Poles don't like Russians (For many of the same reasons Koreans don't like the Japanese), but we don't call that racism. We call it not liking each other.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject:

cabeza wrote:

Well I don't think racism is the right word anyway, considering they are exactly the same race.
Poles don't like Russians (For many of the same reasons Koreans don't like the Japanese), but we don't call that racism. We call it not liking each other.

Well like I said before, if you are going to put it like that then you might as well say all humans are the same race.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject:

[quote="TheUrbanMyth"][quote="hiamnotcool"]

spilot101 wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

[

If foreign aid is the measure than the USA would probably be the least racist country in the world, and that is laughable.

Not quite, it's not the total amount that really counts, but rather the amount per GDP. In this case, the US is at the bottom of the barrel....

"People generally don't expect much in return", ok so go through all the money that has been donated by all the countries and let me know whether it was an investment or a donation based on that criteria. Alterior motives are not unheard of when it comes to donations. The Japanese Colonialism example was an extreme and ridiculous example, and that's why I used it.

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:53 pm Post subject:

Well i don't want to get into the meta argument of race being a social construct. But, even if you want to divide asians up into sub races, which is fine, Koreans and Japanese are the same race. How are they any different? Thet are both in North east asia. They have a history of cultural and biological exchange. They are pretty close.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject:

cabeza wrote:

Well i don't want to get into the meta argument of race being a social construct. But, even if you want to divide asians up into sub races, which is fine, Koreans and Japanese are the same race. How are they any different? Thet are both in North east asia. They have a history of cultural and biological exchange. They are pretty close.

If you don't want to have that argument then why did you bring it up?

Old fat expat

Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject:

The Myth:

Quote:

I'm simply showing how OFE's argument can be easily turned around.

Hmm, my argument was against the canard of having to know a majority of a population before you can make a statement about that population. Please tell me how you have turned that argument around.

Quote:

Anyway since we both now agree that everyone is within their rights to express an opinion on what they've personally observe...it must therefore be MY right to express MY opinion on the posts on this forum that I've personally observed.

Well of course! Dah. But it is one data point that can be counted once. You keep posting over and over and over the same thing. And by shouting down other posters with an aggressive argumentative style you stifle discussion. Have your say, fair enough; but stop telling everyone that does not agree with you they are wrong or belittle them with condescension.

Here is my observation: The Myth does not discuss, he argues (IMO not very well).

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:51 pm Post subject:

hiamnotcool wrote:

cabeza wrote:

If you don't want to have that argument then why did you bring it up?

Because throwing the word racism around when it isn't really applicable to this situation is stupid. I wanted to say that.
But i don't want to start a whole new side tangent on "what is race?".
Prejudiced? Yes. Xenophobic? Yes. Ethnocentric? Sure. Bitter? Definitely.
But racism it isn't.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:33 pm Post subject:

cabeza wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

cabeza wrote:

If you don't want to have that argument then why did you bring it up?

In my opinion they are separate races. If not then prove me wrong.

cabeza

Joined: 29 Sep 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject:

hiamnotcool wrote:

cabeza wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

cabeza wrote:

If you don't want to have that argument then why did you bring it up?

In my opinion they are separate races. If not then prove me wrong.

Race is defined as:
Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.

I don't think Japanese or Koreans have distinct physical characteristics. Do you? If so, what? There are some physical differences, but actually very minor ones.
The classical accepted racial variants were

Australoid
Capoid
Caucasoid
Mongoloid
Negroid

Though that view is out of fashion now. This is why this argument is pointless because it depends on your definition of what "race" is. There is nothing unique enough about Koreans to say that they are a separate race of the human species. Race is a social construct at the end of the day, so you are imposing your own opinions and biases upon the argument. As am I.

Both are thought to have descended from the Siberian Tungus group, but have since had mixture with other groups. Korea with Chinese and invading Mongols. The Japanese with Ainu, Ryukyuan..

Biologically they certainly aren't separate races, as the DNA between them is very similar and shared in many cases (which is true for all humans).
http://www.koreabang.com/2012/stories/dna-analysis-confirms-japanese-are-of-korean-descent.html

I'll admit that nowadays there is trend towards 'racialized ethnicities' and 'ethnicized races'. But in general they are concerted pushes from modern governments to sure up fledgeling nation states, especially those that are composed of large land area that pulls many different peoples together.

Prove to me how Koreans are a race.

hiamnotcool

Joined: 06 Feb 2012

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:50 pm Post subject:

cabeza wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

cabeza wrote:

hiamnotcool wrote:

cabeza wrote:

If you don't want to have that argument then why did you bring it up?

In my opinion they are separate races. If not then prove me wrong.

I'm not going to prove it to you because I don't think they are separate races. Like I said, we are all one human race. However, I think the xenophobic behavior revolves around racism even when dealing with Japanese people.

Interesting that you say the classic way to divide races is now out of fashion. That is what I am getting at, these divisions are man made. Yes, there is the biological aspect, but the extent that it will scrutinized and at what point the biological differences stop separating races is something that is decided by humans. What is the Western basis of race Vs the Eastern basis for race? Go the USA and some ignorant people will just say they are all Asians, go to China and people will say Tibetans and Han Chinese are different, etc etc etc.

And what about a Korean famly that was raised in Japan for two generations? Do Koreans consider that family Japanese or Korean? How about the Korean people that immigrate to China for a few generations and then return to Korea? Are they now considered Ethnically Chinese by Koreans? Nope. They are called ChoseonJeok, not Chinese. They are discriminated against, but they are still given the distinct title of being Korean. These boundaries that I see were created by Korean society as I have experienced it. You can talk biology all you want but when the society draws that distinction I will call it racism.

Mix1

Joined: 08 May 2007

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:18 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Mix1 wrote:

First of all, how about dropping the claim that I made that claim.

Quote:

And do you really think he or anyone else cares much if you take their opinions seriously or not? You are overestimating your importance here. Nobody is seeking your approval.

And as to that both you and he obviously DO care enough to reply (you constantly).

As for backtracking no. I'm simply showing how OFE's argument can be easily turned around.

Quote:

I'm guessing the answers are YES, RARELY, and NOT MUCH.

Actually the answers are YES, OFTEN and (very likely) MORE THAN YOU

Hmm, kind of doubt that. But anyway, saying a few words to the cleaning ajumma at your school doesn't mean you have good grasp of the language or have some massively correct impression of the locals. Still, it'd be interesting to know what you consider truly 'going out' really means. Well, maybe not that interesting...

As for reposting what I said; I know what I said; it's YOU that are misinterpreting it. But that's not surprising. If you don't get the gist of what I said, that's on you, not me. In fact, it's YOU who are making up that false claim, so that's just plain sad. But go ahead and try to cling to that if you want.

Also, a reply to your constant posts is very simple to do and is hardly "caring" much. Don't misunderstand. I swat mosquitos too, and while I'm not emotionally invested in the action, I do recognize them as annoying. Not that a few extra posts here and there are going to stop you from the same old drone.

You on the other hand, post constantly, so don't even try to flip that around on anyone else.

"That is all."

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:12 pm Post subject:

Old fat expat wrote:

And by shouting down other posters with an aggressive argumentative style you stifle discussion. Have your say, fair enough; but stop telling everyone that does not agree with you they are wrong or belittle them with condescension.

Here is my observation: The Myth does not discuss, he argues (IMO not very well).

As for stifling discussion one can look at the thread and see that is not true. Plenty of posts after my last one.

As for telling people they are wrong or belittling them with condescension that is being done with more frequency on the opposing side. When you start criticizing them..then I'll be inclined to take what you have to say under consideration.

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