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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
I will not try. But below is a very informal stab at it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Korea is the 4th largest economy in Asia.
Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan and Singapore are typically lumped ahead of Korea.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
But Korea is 46th in terms of corruption index.
Taiwan = 36th
Japan = 18th
Hong Kong = 15th
Singapore = 5th.
You can draw your own conclusions from this very informal comparison. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
Have you done so? Have you scientifically verified that culture was not a part of the problem?
You claimed you produced a scientific timeline of the sinking. So you've built a facsimile ferry, with proper load, and placed it in some body of water, maybe your bath tub, set up the proper wind and water conditions, and then timed everything with your G-Shock, right?
After all that, your culture study should be a piece of cake. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
Have you done so? Have you scientifically verified that culture was not a part of the problem?
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Until you have evidence that it was, the default position is that it was not. YOU are the one trying to prove a causal relationship and it is incumbent upon YOU to test and prove this.
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| You claimed you produced a scientific timeline of the sinking. |
I did not produce the timeline. We had evidence released from government sources- A transcript (with times); an emergency call and transcript, from a government source; and a plotting of the ferry's course, with times. From those three pieces of information we were able to logically infer that something catastrophic happened at about 4 minutes into the incident. That was the issue in question.
This is not absolute. Additional information could come in that changes or refines that- perhaps the course of the vessel, but until it does we have to proceed with this.
Well, that certainly might speak to corruption being the cause in terms of maintenance and cargo overloading (which it clearly was).
However, your corruption graph indicates similar corruption rates for Italy, Spain and Turkey- all major nations with developed economies. However, I did not see any suggestions that Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia. By your very own data and (informal and suggested) rationale, Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia, which probably would have had a more severe loss of life had it been able to completely sink. I don't think Italian culture had any role at all.
Are we willing to blame Italian culture for the Costa Concordia? Are we going to brand the captain of that vessel as a representative of Italian culture? Are we willing to say that he represents Italian men and maybe if we had Italian women in charge, this wouldn't have happened?
As I've said, "culture" is one of those vague ideas that people throw out in mass tragedies where people seek out some sort of 'overreaching and controlling force' to explain things. Like violent video games or 9/11 conspiracies or the occult or weed and negro jazz. It makes about as much sense to blame "culture" as it does those things. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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SR
I should have prefaced my previous post. You asked if there is a way to show culture is to blame for this incident. I should have answered that "no, culture did not cause this. But elements of the culture contributed to this like a perfect storm".
I used Taiwan, HK, Singapore and Japan because they are geographical neighbours and because they have similar standards of living.
Korea, based on the chart listed above, is much more corrupt compared to their Asian Neighbours.
In my opinion, this Sewol tragedy would not have occurred the way it did in Japan, Singapore, Taiwan or Japan. The fact that Korea is 46th on the corruption index and the 4 other neighbours are 36th, 18th, 15th and 5th sort of proves my point.
Likewise, terrible tragedies that occur in those 4 countries might not occur in a place like Korea. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
Have you done so? Have you scientifically verified that culture was not a part of the problem?
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Until you have evidence that it was, the default position is that it was not. YOU are the one trying to prove a causal relationship and it is incumbent upon YOU to test and prove this.
| Quote: |
| You claimed you produced a scientific timeline of the sinking. |
I did not produce the timeline. We had evidence released from government sources- A transcript (with times); an emergency call and transcript, from a government source; and a plotting of the ferry's course, with times. From those three pieces of information we were able to logically infer that something catastrophic happened at about 4 minutes into the incident. That was the issue in question.
This is not absolute. Additional information could come in that changes or refines that- perhaps the course of the vessel, but until it does we have to proceed with this.
Well, that certainly might speak to corruption being the cause in terms of maintenance and cargo overloading (which it clearly was).
However, your corruption graph indicates similar corruption rates for Italy, Spain and Turkey- all major nations with developed economies. However, I did not see any suggestions that Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia. By your very own data and (informal and suggested) rationale, Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia, which probably would have had a more severe loss of life had it been able to completely sink. I don't think Italian culture had any role at all.
Are we willing to blame Italian culture for the Costa Concordia? Are we going to brand the captain of that vessel as a representative of Italian culture? Are we willing to say that he represents Italian men and maybe if we had Italian women in charge, this wouldn't have happened?
As I've said, "culture" is one of those vague ideas that people throw out in mass tragedies where people seek out some sort of 'overreaching and controlling force' to explain things. Like violent video games or 9/11 conspiracies or the occult or weed and negro jazz. It makes about as much sense to blame "culture" as it does those things. |
No, it's not incumbent on me to scientifically prove it. There's plenty of research that has been done on the matter of culture and its effects. Since you're saying all that research is wrong, the onus is on you.
Again with the WE. Who is this we you continue to post about?
The Costa captain was showing off by sailing too close to shore to give passengers a better look and ended up on the rocks. But some Italians saw him as emblematic of problems with Italian culture:
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“Italians are ashamed and understand that what’s at stake goes beyond life and death and touches on the notion of national identity that has to do with history, ethics and the way we are perceived,” said Francesco Merlo, a commentator with the Rome daily La Repubblica, in an interview.
This sense of shame has made for a hyperbolic retelling of the tale.
Though knowledge of the personalities of the two men is perfunctory at best, the Italian news media easily tagged them as distinctive Italian stereotypes: Captain Schettino as the flashy daredevil and rule-breaker; Captain De Falco as the upholder of duty and respectability, who is often overlooked in a nation easily taken in by more boisterous — and usually sneaky — behavior. |
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/world/europe/italians-embrace-a-hero-after-cruise-ship-accident.html?_r=0
So the Costa Concordia doesn't help your argument.
Again, I ask what is scientific, as you claimed, about reading reports off the Internet? And if you didn't produce it, why did you keep calling it "my timeline'?
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| Like violent video games or 9/11 conspiracies or the occult or weed and negro jazz. |
Those might explain where your posts actually originate, but none of them are a good analogy for the concepts that the term culture represents.
Not to say that the island of weed doesn't have its own culture. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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You know the expression, a battle of wits...
The above post is a battle of nitwits. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| No, it's not incumbent on me to scientifically prove it. There's plenty of research that has been done on the matter of culture and its effects. Since you're saying all that research is wrong, the onus is on you. |
So you don't believe that proven scientific evidence is a necessary component of determining the cause of an accident or a finding of legal guilt?
Just because culture may or may not have been proven to be a cause in a previous crime does not mean that it is a cause in all subsequent crimes.
This is basic logic atwood.
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| The Costa captain was showing off by sailing too close to shore to give passengers a better look and ended up on the rocks. But some Italians saw him as emblematic of problems with Italian culture: |
And plenty of people did assign any concept of culture. Some Koreans have blamed Korean culture on this accident. Some westerners have said its not because of Korean culture.
I believe in looking at individuals and their actions and their individual motivations before blaming "culture".
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| Again, I ask what is scientific, as you claimed, about reading reports off the Internet? |
Le sigh- The transcripts weren't reports off of the internet. They were released by official government agencies. The internet didn't generate them, actual recordings between the ship and shore did. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| No, it's not incumbent on me to scientifically prove it. There's plenty of research that has been done on the matter of culture and its effects. Since you're saying all that research is wrong, the onus is on you. |
So you don't believe that proven scientific evidence is a necessary component of determining the cause of an accident or a finding of legal guilt?
Just because culture may or may not have been proven to be a cause in a previous crime does not mean that it is a cause in all subsequent crimes.
This is basic logic atwood.
| Quote: |
| The Costa captain was showing off by sailing too close to shore to give passengers a better look and ended up on the rocks. But some Italians saw him as emblematic of problems with Italian culture: |
And plenty of people did assign any concept of culture. Some Koreans have blamed Korean culture on this accident. Some westerners have said its not because of Korean culture.
I believe in looking at individuals and their actions and their individual motivations before blaming "culture".
| Quote: |
| Again, I ask what is scientific, as you claimed, about reading reports off the Internet? |
Le sigh- The transcripts weren't reports off of the internet. They were released by official government agencies. The internet didn't generate them, actual recordings between the ship and shore did. |
You're twisting my words again, herr g. Shouldn't your argument stand on its scientific merits without having to lie about what others post?
You're the one looking to "blame" not me. You're the one talking about crimes, not me.
Individual's actions are influenced by culture. If you want to understand the problem, you've got to go to the source.
So you have the government transcripts in hand? You didn't read them on the Internet?
Either way, my point stands--reading is not science.
Just think of lying, which is much more acceptable in Korean culture than American. Did you pick up the habit here or there?
And where's the evidence for your 10's of millions of non-seatbelt wearing poor Americans? |
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saram_
Joined: 13 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to share this article.
Think its well worth a read.
Culture is mentioned quite a bit too.
There were several failings by people in very responsible roles.
"We can point to multiple probable failures: politicians who eased regulations to allow the import and modification of an aging vessel; regulators who did not enforce safety rules during inspection; the ferry owner who apparently authorized overloading of the cargo; and, most crucially, the captain and crew who gave the wrong instruction and, when the coast guard finally came, bailed themselves out without even bothering to inform those trapped inside."
http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-KRTB-5716 |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| saram_ wrote: |
I'd like to share this article.
Think its well worth a read.
Culture is mentioned quite a bit too.
There were several failings by people in very responsible roles.
"We can point to multiple probable failures: politicians who eased regulations to allow the import and modification of an aging vessel; regulators who did not enforce safety rules during inspection; the ferry owner who apparently authorized overloading of the cargo; and, most crucially, the captain and crew who gave the wrong instruction and, when the coast guard finally came, bailed themselves out without even bothering to inform those trapped inside."
http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-KRTB-5716 |
It's only worth reading if you want to listen to some "Confucian Scholar" explain why Confucian ideals are better than Western ideals.
In short, a rather pathetic attempt to sell his ideology. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Individual's actions are influenced by culture. If you want to understand the problem, you've got to go to the source |
How exactly are you able to tell the difference between a person who is negligent because of Korean culture and someone who is just plain negligent? After all people who are just plain negligent are found in every culture.
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| So you have the government transcripts in hand? You didn't read them on the Internet? |
Are you seriously trying to be this juvenile? This is the same transcript that was released to every media outlet out there- MBC/SBS/KBS/ChosunIlbo/JoongAngDaily/CNN/BBC/AlJazeera/Reuters/AP/NewYorkTimes/USAToday/etc. etc. etc.
Are you proposing a massive conspiracy by all of those outlets together to create a fraudulent transcript? It was a government release to the public.
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| And where's the evidence for your 10's of millions of non-seatbelt wearing poor Americans? |
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/85176/102754.pdf?sequence=1 |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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SR
| Quote: |
How exactly are you able to tell the difference between a person who is negligent because of Korean culture and someone who is just plain negligent? After all people who are just plain negligent are found in every culture. |
One thing I have to add is that this sewol tragedy is not just 1 idiot captain.
This tragedy involves:
- the captain (bailed on his passengers)
- the crew that bailed (20 out of 26?)
- the students who were told to sit still (a hint of Confucian?)
- Chonghaejin (the ship's owner renovated the ship making it unstable)
- the Korean shipping association (didn't do a good job of overseeing the shipping industry)
- The coast guard (didn't seem like they knew what to do, sorta like how crappy the Korean cops are)
- Safety certification (the crew admitted they didn't know what to do) |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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The choices we make, our preferences, sense of humour, our norms and values, and our actions can be at least partially attributed to the culture they were formed in. However, we are products, not prisoners, of our culture. People don't always do what is considered acceptable or appropriate.
The captain of the ship was just a cowardly dipshit who acted selfishly. There are probably a lot of Korean captains that would have acted more heroically in that situation. I can't see how his actions represent Korean culture.
What I can see that is much more typical of Korea, is the litany of *beep*-ups, corruption and general incompetence throughout.
Korea seriously needs to get its act together and do away with this third-world mentality if it wants to be respected as a developed nation. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Individual's actions are influenced by culture. If you want to understand the problem, you've got to go to the source |
How exactly are you able to tell the difference between a person who is negligent because of Korean culture and someone who is just plain negligent? After all people who are just plain negligent are found in every culture.
| Quote: |
| So you have the government transcripts in hand? You didn't read them on the Internet? |
Are you seriously trying to be this juvenile? This is the same transcript that was released to every media outlet out there- MBC/SBS/KBS/ChosunIlbo/JoongAngDaily/CNN/BBC/AlJazeera/Reuters/AP/NewYorkTimes/USAToday/etc. etc. etc.
Are you proposing a massive conspiracy by all of those outlets together to create a fraudulent transcript? It was a government release to the public.
| Quote: |
| And where's the evidence for your 10's of millions of non-seatbelt wearing poor Americans? |
http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/85176/102754.pdf?sequence=1 |
So you read the transcripts on the Internet? Yes or no? Either way, in what way, shape or form is that scientific? Can you or can you not answer the question?
It's not just individual negligence, but a pattern of negligence that points to culture being a factor.
That link supports my argument:
1. That you just made up the number 10's of millions:
| Quote: |
| Therefore, because this project focused on understanding variations in use among states rather than actual use rates, |
So, again, can you give evidence for that number?
2. As for culture being a factor in people's actions:
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In this study, state culture was measured through a set of socio
-demographic factors that included education, race, income, political
leaning, and religiosity. |
Culture--got it?
Can I get an amen, Brother G? |
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