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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
I will not try. But below is a very informal stab at it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Korea is the 4th largest economy in Asia.
Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan and Singapore are typically lumped ahead of Korea.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
But Korea is 46th in terms of corruption index.
Taiwan = 36th
Japan = 18th
Hong Kong = 15th
Singapore = 5th.
You can draw your own conclusions from this very informal comparison. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
Have you done so? Have you scientifically verified that culture was not a part of the problem?
You claimed you produced a scientific timeline of the sinking. So you've built a facsimile ferry, with proper load, and placed it in some body of water, maybe your bath tub, set up the proper wind and water conditions, and then timed everything with your G-Shock, right?
After all that, your culture study should be a piece of cake. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
Have you done so? Have you scientifically verified that culture was not a part of the problem?
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Until you have evidence that it was, the default position is that it was not. YOU are the one trying to prove a causal relationship and it is incumbent upon YOU to test and prove this.
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| You claimed you produced a scientific timeline of the sinking. |
I did not produce the timeline. We had evidence released from government sources- A transcript (with times); an emergency call and transcript, from a government source; and a plotting of the ferry's course, with times. From those three pieces of information we were able to logically infer that something catastrophic happened at about 4 minutes into the incident. That was the issue in question.
This is not absolute. Additional information could come in that changes or refines that- perhaps the course of the vessel, but until it does we have to proceed with this.
Well, that certainly might speak to corruption being the cause in terms of maintenance and cargo overloading (which it clearly was).
However, your corruption graph indicates similar corruption rates for Italy, Spain and Turkey- all major nations with developed economies. However, I did not see any suggestions that Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia. By your very own data and (informal and suggested) rationale, Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia, which probably would have had a more severe loss of life had it been able to completely sink. I don't think Italian culture had any role at all.
Are we willing to blame Italian culture for the Costa Concordia? Are we going to brand the captain of that vessel as a representative of Italian culture? Are we willing to say that he represents Italian men and maybe if we had Italian women in charge, this wouldn't have happened?
As I've said, "culture" is one of those vague ideas that people throw out in mass tragedies where people seek out some sort of 'overreaching and controlling force' to explain things. Like violent video games or 9/11 conspiracies or the occult or weed and negro jazz. It makes about as much sense to blame "culture" as it does those things. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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SR
I should have prefaced my previous post. You asked if there is a way to show culture is to blame for this incident. I should have answered that "no, culture did not cause this. But elements of the culture contributed to this like a perfect storm".
I used Taiwan, HK, Singapore and Japan because they are geographical neighbours and because they have similar standards of living.
Korea, based on the chart listed above, is much more corrupt compared to their Asian Neighbours.
In my opinion, this Sewol tragedy would not have occurred the way it did in Japan, Singapore, Taiwan or Japan. The fact that Korea is 46th on the corruption index and the 4 other neighbours are 36th, 18th, 15th and 5th sort of proves my point.
Likewise, terrible tragedies that occur in those 4 countries might not occur in a place like Korea. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So can anyone here explain the way to scientifically verify that culture was responsible? I mean, with control groups and all that kind of stuff. |
Have you done so? Have you scientifically verified that culture was not a part of the problem?
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Until you have evidence that it was, the default position is that it was not. YOU are the one trying to prove a causal relationship and it is incumbent upon YOU to test and prove this.
| Quote: |
| You claimed you produced a scientific timeline of the sinking. |
I did not produce the timeline. We had evidence released from government sources- A transcript (with times); an emergency call and transcript, from a government source; and a plotting of the ferry's course, with times. From those three pieces of information we were able to logically infer that something catastrophic happened at about 4 minutes into the incident. That was the issue in question.
This is not absolute. Additional information could come in that changes or refines that- perhaps the course of the vessel, but until it does we have to proceed with this.
Well, that certainly might speak to corruption being the cause in terms of maintenance and cargo overloading (which it clearly was).
However, your corruption graph indicates similar corruption rates for Italy, Spain and Turkey- all major nations with developed economies. However, I did not see any suggestions that Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia. By your very own data and (informal and suggested) rationale, Italian culture was responsible for the Costa Concordia, which probably would have had a more severe loss of life had it been able to completely sink. I don't think Italian culture had any role at all.
Are we willing to blame Italian culture for the Costa Concordia? Are we going to brand the captain of that vessel as a representative of Italian culture? Are we willing to say that he represents Italian men and maybe if we had Italian women in charge, this wouldn't have happened?
As I've said, "culture" is one of those vague ideas that people throw out in mass tragedies where people seek out some sort of 'overreaching and controlling force' to explain things. Like violent video games or 9/11 conspiracies or the occult or weed and negro jazz. It makes about as much sense to blame "culture" as it does those things. |
No, it's not incumbent on me to scientifically prove it. There's plenty of research that has been done on the matter of culture and its effects. Since you're saying all that research is wrong, the onus is on you.
Again with the WE. Who is this we you continue to post about?
The Costa captain was showing off by sailing too close to shore to give passengers a better look and ended up on the rocks. But some Italians saw him as emblematic of problems with Italian culture:
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“Italians are ashamed and understand that what’s at stake goes beyond life and death and touches on the notion of national identity that has to do with history, ethics and the way we are perceived,” said Francesco Merlo, a commentator with the Rome daily La Repubblica, in an interview.
This sense of shame has made for a hyperbolic retelling of the tale.
Though knowledge of the personalities of the two men is perfunctory at best, the Italian news media easily tagged them as distinctive Italian stereotypes: Captain Schettino as the flashy daredevil and rule-breaker; Captain De Falco as the upholder of duty and respectability, who is often overlooked in a nation easily taken in by more boisterous — and usually sneaky — behavior. |
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/world/europe/italians-embrace-a-hero-after-cruise-ship-accident.html?_r=0
So the Costa Concordia doesn't help your argument.
Again, I ask what is scientific, as you claimed, about reading reports off the Internet? And if you didn't produce it, why did you keep calling it "my timeline'?
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| Like violent video games or 9/11 conspiracies or the occult or weed and negro jazz. |
Those might explain where your posts actually originate, but none of them are a good analogy for the concepts that the term culture represents.
Not to say that the island of weed doesn't have its own culture. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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You know the expression, a battle of wits...
The above post is a battle of nitwits. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: |
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