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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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nicwr2002
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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 Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| They also need to indict the people responsible for approving the redesign of the ship as well as inspectors who allowed the ship to be overloaded. |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:00 am Post subject: |
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There's nothing to discuss. They must be freed at ONCE!  |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:23 am Post subject: Re: 4 Sewol crew members indicted for homicide |
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As I understand it this does not include the third mate who was at the wheel at the time of the accident.
Which is good. She should have never been put in that position.
Surprising though considering how high tempers are running. Only a few days ago a professor lost his job simply for criticizing the families actions on Facebook. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:30 am Post subject: |
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These are the ones indicted for homicide:
"The captain, a first officer and second officer and the chief engineer escaped before the passengers, leading to grave casualties," prosecutor Ahn Sang-don, who is leading the investigation, told a news briefing.
It seems that from this article that the other eleven crew members (that third officer at the helm would be part of that group, right?) have been indicted for negligence.
"Prosecutors also indicted the 11 other surviving crew members of the ferry Sewol on negligence charges." |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:44 am Post subject: |
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I agree with this decision 100%.
The Koreans assigned the blame among the crew appropriately. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Word is SteelRails will serve as their defense attorney. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Word is SteelRails will serve as their defense attorney. |
And expert witness. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:42 am Post subject: |
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I think it is an over-charge, but then again, I am going by US law. Apparently, "The Korean criminal code treats “murder by not taking certain actions” and “murder by taking certain actions,” such as stabbing a person to death, as the same. Under the criminal code, those convicted of murder are given the death penalty, life sentence or a prison term of five years or more."
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/116_157294.html |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
I think it is an over-charge, but then again, I am going by US law. Apparently, "The Korean criminal code treats “murder by not taking certain actions” and “murder by taking certain actions,” such as stabbing a person to death, as the same. Under the criminal code, those convicted of murder are given the death penalty, life sentence or a prison term of five years or more."
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/116_157294.html |
There are situations under U.S. law where a person can be charged with murder for not taking actions. Good example is if a boat in distress fires a flare. If you are in a nearby boat and ignore it, resulting in a death onboard the distressed craft; you can be charged with murder. |
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guavashake
Joined: 09 Nov 2013
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| Stan Rogers wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
I think it is an over-charge, but then again, I am going by US law. Apparently, "The Korean criminal code treats “murder by not taking certain actions” and “murder by taking certain actions,” such as stabbing a person to death, as the same. Under the criminal code, those convicted of murder are given the death penalty, life sentence or a prison term of five years or more."
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/116_157294.html |
There are situations under U.S. law where a person can be charged with murder for not taking actions. Good example is if a boat in distress fires a flare. If you are in a nearby boat and ignore it, resulting in a death onboard the distressed craft; you can be charged with murder. |
A murder charge? Not manslaughter? Are you sure? I don't want to sound snarky or get into a big Dave's debate, but I have to say I find that highly doubtful, at least in your "good example". Can you cite any time this has happened, or something that shows murder would be the charge? All I could find was this:
Rendering Assistance (46 USC 2304)
The master or person in charge of a vessel is obligated by law
to provide assistance that can be safely provided to any
individual in danger at sea . The master or person in charge is subject to a fine and/or imprisonment for failure to do so. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| guavashake wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Word is SteelRails will serve as their defense attorney. |
And expert witness. |
At least I don't operate under the assumption that because they are guilty of one thing, they must be guilty of all, which is what some people seem to think.
As I've repeatedly said- I see sufficient evidence so far to find the captain guilty of negligence beforehand and failing to aid in the evacuation and prematurely abandoning ship. I don't see sufficient evidence to warrant them failing to sound an evacuation or prepare for evacuation within the first 4 minutes that the evidence at this point indicates was available to them while such things were physically possible. I've explained the mitigating factors- time available, lack of information, focus on stabilization vs. evacuation, potential risks in event of ordering certain pre-evacuation procedures.
(note this is all predicated upon the timeline based upon government released transcripts, the ferry's course as reported by the government, and released emergency calls from government agencies. If this timeline changes the culpability of the crew may drastically increase.)
1. Were there any potential risks in ordering people on deck of a listing ship during the first four minutes?
2. Should the crew focus on stabilization instead of pre-evacuation during those first four minutes? Was it possible to conduct both simultaneously?
3. Did the crew have sufficient information at the time to make the appropriate decision?
4. Was 4 minutes sufficient time to undertake all of these things in a controlled and informed manner, while adhering to procedure and safety?
If the answer to any of these is unclear, then you have to consider that there might not be sufficient cause to blame them for that part of the incident. That doesn't mean you don't blame them for others. That doesn't mean you are "defending them". That just means that there are logical questions one must ask and answer before deciding guilt. As it stands, I have what I believe to be reasonable doubts on all four of those points. I think if you took away your prior familiarity with the incident and the nationality of the people involved, and were asked those questions, you yourself might arrive at those same doubts. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Sector7G wrote: |
| Stan Rogers wrote: |
| Sector7G wrote: |
I think it is an over-charge, but then again, I am going by US law. Apparently, "The Korean criminal code treats “murder by not taking certain actions” and “murder by taking certain actions,” such as stabbing a person to death, as the same. Under the criminal code, those convicted of murder are given the death penalty, life sentence or a prison term of five years or more."
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2014/05/116_157294.html |
There are situations under U.S. law where a person can be charged with murder for not taking actions. Good example is if a boat in distress fires a flare. If you are in a nearby boat and ignore it, resulting in a death onboard the distressed craft; you can be charged with murder. |
A murder charge? Not manslaughter? Are you sure? I don't want to sound snarky or get into a big Dave's debate, but I have to say I find that highly doubtful, at least in your "good example". Can you cite any time this has happened, or something that shows murder would be the charge? All I could find was this:
Rendering Assistance (46 USC 2304)
The master or person in charge of a vessel is obligated by law
to provide assistance that can be safely provided to any
individual in danger at sea . The master or person in charge is subject to a fine and/or imprisonment for failure to do so. |
I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong about this, but a ship captain from the U.S. told me so. Its the premeditation factor that could make it a murder charge.
For example, a ship is on fire, flares are fired and people jump in the water. Other ship captain nearby sees this, decides to drive away and let those people drown. That could make it murder.
We are splitting hairs here. There was a time in America when stealing a horse could get a thief hanged if he did it in the wrong place.
Anyway I agree with the Koreans decision to charge those responsible like they have. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| guavashake wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| Word is SteelRails will serve as their defense attorney. |
And expert witness. |
At least I don't operate under the assumption that because they are guilty of one thing, they must be guilty of all, which is what some people seem to think.
As I've repeatedly said- I see sufficient evidence so far to find the captain guilty of negligence beforehand and failing to aid in the evacuation and prematurely abandoning ship. I don't see sufficient evidence to warrant them failing to sound an evacuation or prepare for evacuation within the first 4 minutes that the evidence at this point indicates was available to them while such things were physically possible. I've explained the mitigating factors- time available, lack of information, focus on stabilization vs. evacuation, potential risks in event of ordering certain pre-evacuation procedures.
(note this is all predicated upon the timeline based upon government released transcripts, the ferry's course as reported by the government, and released emergency calls from government agencies. If this timeline changes the culpability of the crew may drastically increase.)
1. Were there any potential risks in ordering people on deck of a listing ship during the first four minutes?
2. Should the crew focus on stabilization instead of pre-evacuation during those first four minutes? Was it possible to conduct both simultaneously?
3. Did the crew have sufficient information at the time to make the appropriate decision?
4. Was 4 minutes sufficient time to undertake all of these things in a controlled and informed manner, while adhering to procedure and safety?
If the answer to any of these is unclear, then you have to consider that there might not be sufficient cause to blame them for that part of the incident. That doesn't mean you don't blame them for others. That doesn't mean you are "defending them". That just means that there are logical questions one must ask and answer before deciding guilt. As it stands, I have what I believe to be reasonable doubts on all four of those points. I think if you took away your prior familiarity with the incident and the nationality of the people involved, and were asked those questions, you yourself might arrive at those same doubts. |
Steelrails I think you are overanalyzing details and seeing it as a timeline of events. It was one big event.
You are missing the big picture here. The crew are guilty of operating a ship in a way that resulted in the deaths of hunderds of children. |
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