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wanderkind
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Queue jumping is one thing that really gets me. I was waiting at a taxi rank last Sunday in the front of a queue of about about eight people and a young douche bag pushes straight through the middle of the line and stands at the front. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt hoping he was just happening to get picked up by a friend there, but no, sure enough, when the next taxi came he went straight for the door. After trying to be the humble foreigner for many years and putting up with this sort of shit I've decided not to tolerate this kind of antisocial behavior so I told him '다른 사람 먼저 기다리고 있었는데'. Instead of apologizing he tried to give the blank, innocent look, so I called him '개새끼' and went in front of him to get the taxi. Not the most mature response and the taxi driver couldn't understand why I had a problem with queue jumping, saying that there are many taxis anyway, but I still think I was right to do something on principle. |
Well done sir/madam, I applaud you.
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
....
If seven or eight years from now, there's lots of Korean guys in the 6'5" range with the size rules mentality prevelant here, it's probably good to be prepared for that day. (I hope not to still be here then unless I decide to marry or get a really good job offer.)  |
I doubt that's going to be the case. I've only seen 1 or 2 high school students over 6ft in the last couple years, and the one time I saw a few 6'5"/6'6" Korean guys walking around together I'm pretty sure they were on a uni basketball team. My thinking is that virtually all really tall Korean guys become athletes and are too dedicated to their sport/training to go out and muck about drinking / interacting with us foreigners. I've seen tall Korean dudes in the subway or bus terminals, but NEVER once in Itaewon/Hongdae/a bar/out at night.
There are some really tall teachers, but I'd bet most of the really big foreigners you've encountered were US military. They've got some giant kids in there.
Again, I caution being fatalistic in 'It's just a matter of time before it comes to blows'-type thinking. I worry you may streamline the development of situations towards physical conflict by letting limitations on perceived potential outcomes constrain your decision making.
That being said, as mentioned, jiu-jitsu or judo are good choices for what you want. You'll learn a lot of ways to control a person/situation without resorting to blows, which will work in your favour when it comes time to review the CCTV. If it's your word vs theirs though, you're probably screwed regardless. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
[ In Korea you aren't allowed to protect yourself. More so if you're a foriegner.
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Both untrue.
Korean law does not require ANYONE Korean or foreigner to stand there and be a punching bag. That is just nonsense.
Let's look at what a couple of Korean lawyers have to say rather than repeating misinformation on Dave's
| Quote: |
Basic principles
“In self-defense, there are three basic principles or requirements involved: imminent threat of harm to the victim or a third party, proportionality, and intent to defend,” Kang Ju-won, a lawyer and member of the Korean Bar Association and the Seoul Bar Association, told Voice. “Here, ‘Imminent threat of harm’ refers to a situation where the threat is not a future threat; ‘proportionality’ refers to an amount of force that is reasonably necessary to prevent the present harm; and ‘intent to defend’ refers to the victim’s intent to use force as a means to defend as opposed to a means of attack.”
Korean courts have often been hesitant in recognizing pleas of self-defense, particularly in cases of mutual violence, such as fights.
“Korean courts have been passive in recognizing the principle of self-defense. Even though defendants contend justification for their crimes in quite many cases, courts precisely study the requirements of self-defense,” said Lee Ji-young, a public defender at the Anyang branch of Suwon District Court.
One reason why justifications of self-defense are rarely invoked successfully, according to Lee, is that the law places the burden of proof on the defendant to prove he was acting to defend himself.
“(He will need) defendant-friendly witnesses and recorded videos, etc., to prove his innocence or self-defense. In reality, defendants are not as skillful at collecting favorable evidence as the prosecution so they lose,” said Lee.
There are signs, however, that prosecutors and courts have been edging toward a more liberal interpretation of the concept. In October, a Prosecution-Citizen Committee decided not to press charges against a woman who bit off part of her would-be rapist’s tongue, recognizing her action to have been a legitimate act of self-defense. The citizens’ committee, introduced in 2010 to reflect public opinion in prosecutorial decisions, is roughly analogous to the grand jury system in the U.S. |
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20121203000521 |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
[ In Korea you aren't allowed to protect yourself. More so if you're a foriegner.
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Both untrue.
Korean law does not require ANYONE Korean or foreigner to stand there and be a punching bag. That is just nonsense.
Let's look at what a couple of Korean lawyers have to say rather than repeating misinformation on Dave's
| Quote: |
Basic principles
“In self-defense, there are three basic principles or requirements involved: imminent threat of harm to the victim or a third party, proportionality, and intent to defend,” Kang Ju-won, a lawyer and member of the Korean Bar Association and the Seoul Bar Association, told Voice. “Here, ‘Imminent threat of harm’ refers to a situation where the threat is not a future threat; ‘proportionality’ refers to an amount of force that is reasonably necessary to prevent the present harm; and ‘intent to defend’ refers to the victim’s intent to use force as a means to defend as opposed to a means of attack.”
Korean courts have often been hesitant in recognizing pleas of self-defense, particularly in cases of mutual violence, such as fights.
“Korean courts have been passive in recognizing the principle of self-defense. Even though defendants contend justification for their crimes in quite many cases, courts precisely study the requirements of self-defense,” said Lee Ji-young, a public defender at the Anyang branch of Suwon District Court.
One reason why justifications of self-defense are rarely invoked successfully, according to Lee, is that the law places the burden of proof on the defendant to prove he was acting to defend himself.
“(He will need) defendant-friendly witnesses and recorded videos, etc., to prove his innocence or self-defense. In reality, defendants are not as skillful at collecting favorable evidence as the prosecution so they lose,” said Lee.
There are signs, however, that prosecutors and courts have been edging toward a more liberal interpretation of the concept. In October, a Prosecution-Citizen Committee decided not to press charges against a woman who bit off part of her would-be rapist’s tongue, recognizing her action to have been a legitimate act of self-defense. The citizens’ committee, introduced in 2010 to reflect public opinion in prosecutorial decisions, is roughly analogous to the grand jury system in the U.S. |
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20121203000521 |
Uhm, a reading of that article basically comes across as basically telling someone to be a punching bag and there is a lot of wiggle room in that interpretation.
That article does nothing to calm my worries about getting involved in a physical altercation here and how the law might respond. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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My thoughts exactly. That article, if anything, tells me how hard a self-defense claim would be.
Let's be honest here - how often does this sort of thing go before a judge? In truth, the "arresting" officer will bring both parties to the station, and try to hash out an agreement.
Seen it happen in almost EVERY small crime/claim setting I've known of personally.
Perhaps, TUM, you may what to read about actual experiences with the police here. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
[ In Korea you aren't allowed to protect yourself. More so if you're a foriegner.
|
Both untrue.
Korean law does not require ANYONE Korean or foreigner to stand there and be a punching bag. That is just nonsense.
Let's look at what a couple of Korean lawyers have to say rather than repeating misinformation on Dave's
| Quote: |
Basic principles
“In self-defense, there are three basic principles or requirements involved: imminent threat of harm to the victim or a third party, proportionality, and intent to defend,” Kang Ju-won, a lawyer and member of the Korean Bar Association and the Seoul Bar Association, told Voice. “Here, ‘Imminent threat of harm’ refers to a situation where the threat is not a future threat; ‘proportionality’ refers to an amount of force that is reasonably necessary to prevent the present harm; and ‘intent to defend’ refers to the victim’s intent to use force as a means to defend as opposed to a means of attack.”
Korean courts have often been hesitant in recognizing pleas of self-defense, particularly in cases of mutual violence, such as fights.
“Korean courts have been passive in recognizing the principle of self-defense. Even though defendants contend justification for their crimes in quite many cases, courts precisely study the requirements of self-defense,” said Lee Ji-young, a public defender at the Anyang branch of Suwon District Court.
One reason why justifications of self-defense are rarely invoked successfully, according to Lee, is that the law places the burden of proof on the defendant to prove he was acting to defend himself.
“(He will need) defendant-friendly witnesses and recorded videos, etc., to prove his innocence or self-defense. In reality, defendants are not as skillful at collecting favorable evidence as the prosecution so they lose,” said Lee.
There are signs, however, that prosecutors and courts have been edging toward a more liberal interpretation of the concept. In October, a Prosecution-Citizen Committee decided not to press charges against a woman who bit off part of her would-be rapist’s tongue, recognizing her action to have been a legitimate act of self-defense. The citizens’ committee, introduced in 2010 to reflect public opinion in prosecutorial decisions, is roughly analogous to the grand jury system in the U.S. |
http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20121203000521 |
Uhm, a reading of that article basically comes across as basically telling someone to be a punching bag and there is a lot of wiggle room in that interpretation.
That article does nothing to calm my worries about getting involved in a physical altercation here and how the law might respond. |
It still proves my point that you ARE allowed to defend yourself here.
Sure in an actual court of law you might lose...but that's a risk anywhere as well as back home.
I'm simply refuting the claim that you are not allowed to defend yourself under any circumstances.
And I don't know about any of you guys...but if some idiot was coming at me with a knife and I couldn't get away...I'd do all in my power to put him down hard and worry about the cops later. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
My thoughts exactly. That article, if anything, tells me how hard a self-defense claim would be.
Let's be honest here - how often does this sort of thing go before a judge? In truth, the "arresting" officer will bring both parties to the station, and try to hash out an agreement.
Seen it happen in almost EVERY small crime/claim setting I've known of personally.
Perhaps, TUM, you may what to read about actual experiences with the police here. |
Well if we are talking about actual experiences with the police here are some more
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=109550&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
| Quote: |
| I got 400,000 won in blood money, so yes, foreigners do get paid when they are the victim. Negotiations were done with the guy's family. Police weren't involved except for the arrest. |
| Quote: |
Several years ago, this young k-guy(maybe 20) was making some trouble in the bar. He smashed a glass pitcher over a foreign guy's head and was dumb enough to hang around for the cops to show up.
K-guy forked over 800,000 Won that night in order to avoid charges. |
Yes there are xenophobic idiots in the police force. No, the foreigner is not always at fault and yes, you are allowed (within strict guidelines) to defend yourself from a physical attack.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Thu May 22, 2014 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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You ARE supposed to stop at red lights here too. You ARE supposed to signal when you turn. You ARE supposed to/able to do many things here.
That doesn't mean it's what HAPPENS.
Sometimes, TUM, I feel like you have a disconnect from what is actually going on here. Like your information comes from reading, and nothing else.
Have you been involved in numerous incidents with the police? Your close friends? Did they all go to court and decide in the self-defense favor?
If not, please stop talking about what things ARE possible, and perhaps take time to mention what is more probable.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
My thoughts exactly. That article, if anything, tells me how hard a self-defense claim would be.
Let's be honest here - how often does this sort of thing go before a judge? In truth, the "arresting" officer will bring both parties to the station, and try to hash out an agreement.
Seen it happen in almost EVERY small crime/claim setting I've known of personally.
Perhaps, TUM, you may what to read about actual experiences with the police here. |
Well if we are talking about actual experiences with the police here are some more
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=109550&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 |
Funny, I didn't see one example from those anonymous posters proving your point about self-defense in court.
Again though - do you actually live in korea? What are your experiences? Your friends?
Or are you simply talking about things you read online?
The link I posted to is an actual guy. A guy I know. A guy who is not hiding behind anonymity.
Last edited by Captain Corea on Thu May 22, 2014 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| wanderkind wrote: |
Again, I caution being fatalistic in 'It's just a matter of time before it comes to blows'-type thinking. I worry you may streamline the development of situations towards physical conflict by letting limitations on perceived potential outcomes constrain your decision making.
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Great point.
If you have that mentality, trouble is even more likely to find you.
In reality, in most cases you can almost certainly go through life without any physical confrontation. In most cases (not ALL of course) it takes two to tango.
One potential issue with martial arts or fight training is that it changes you and in the early stages, part of you may look for confrontation just to "test" yourself. Whereas before you might have just walked away, training gives you confidence (sometimes false confidence) and this can lead to more trouble sometimes.
| Quote: |
| That being said, as mentioned, jiu-jitsu or judo are good choices for what you want. You'll learn a lot of ways to control a person/situation without resorting to blows, which will work in your favour when it comes time to review the CCTV. If it's your word vs theirs though, you're probably screwed regardless. |
Agreed.
One problem with judo is it's more about competition so they don't really teach you to avoid strikes, and they rely on the gi jacket a lot for most of the techniques. It's good for balance and leverage and basic control. The throws are impressive but unless you really master them, they are not always easy to execute in a live situation (ahem).
And one potential problem with jiujitsu is many classes only do groundwork, which is good but not if that's the ONLY thing you are learning, as fights start on the feet. I'm not going to argue with any jiujitsu people about this, but like with any martial art, there will be times when the techniques you learn in class will not be the best thing to use in a real situation.
The best weapon, IMO, is a mix of skills and using your BRAIN to make good decisions before a fight even happens. Avoiding the fight mentality altogether is even better, as fewer problems will gravitate towards you. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
You ARE supposed to stop at red lights here too. You ARE supposed to signal when you turn. You ARE supposed to/able to do many things here.
That doesn't mean it's what HAPPENS.
Sometimes, TUM, I feel like you have a disconnect from what is actually going on here. Like your information comes from reading, and nothing else.
Have you been involved in numerous incidents with the police? Your close friends? Did they all go to court and decide in the self-defense favor?
If not, please stop talking about what things ARE possible, and perhaps take time to mention what is more probable. |
Hmm... I was under the impression that we were discussing this claim by Mr. waygookin namely, that people can not legally defend themselves here especially foreigners.
I simply proved that incorrect. That was supposed to be the limit of the discussion and not all this other stuff.
Yes it's probable and possible that anything can and would happen...including that you get fined, imprisoned and deported.
ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT IT IS NOT SO BLACK AND WHITE AS WAS CLAIMED ABOVE!
[ |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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You should change your name to TheLiteralMyth.
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
It still proves my point that you ARE allowed to defend yourself here.
Sure in an actual court of law you might lose...but that's a risk anywhere as well as back home.
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But is the risk of losing here... THE SAME as back home?
The laws here differ, as well as the interpretation and application of them, and that's if they follow the laws in the books in the first place.
Adherence to truth here differs as well. And if it's your word against a local's and some random passerby's, guess who they are going to believe?
Plus, I've known a few lawyers and law students here, and the law system here seems almost as half-baked as the traffic rules here. And let's not get started on the keystone cops, who will also be in the legal mix testifying against you.
When someone says "You aren't allowed to defend yourself here"... it effectively means you will almost certainly lose in court or even before the court battle.
(If we're throwing out random examples to try to make a point, here's one of mine:
A friend never threw a punch but took multiple kicks and punches from a local, luckily all on CCTV. The police initially believed the crazy local that he had been attacked by the foreigner. The CCTV proved him wrong, but the police warned the foreigner that simply grabbing the other guy's jacket was against the law and was an assault! This was while he was getting punched in the face! The local got NO warnings, was treated very well, and his dad came to pick him and then tried to intimidate the foreigner into not pressing charges, and when that didn't work, the bribe offers began... all in front of the police!
This is not really an environment where people should expect the same legal standards as back home, and even if there are laws on the books here, the actual reality will likely play out much differently.) |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
It still proves my point that you ARE allowed to defend yourself here.
Sure in an actual court of law you might lose...but that's a risk anywhere as well as back home.
I'm simply refuting the claim that you are not allowed to defend yourself under any circumstances.
And I don't know about any of you guys...but if some idiot was coming at me with a knife and I couldn't get away...I'd do all in my power to put him down hard and worry about the cops later. |
It may be on the books, but that doesn't mean it will necessarily apply in a street fight situation. You might have a point if we're talking about a female jogger defending herself from an attempted rapist or if a couple of career Korean criminals tried to strongarm robbery a random foreigner late at night, but this isn't going to apply at 3PM over a fender-bender or outside of a bar.
We're talking about practical advice here. It would be irresponsible to suggest to anyone that they can fight back in self-defense in Korea and not face the strong potential for serious consequences. This isn't even a foreigner thing (though we are sometimes more vulnerable), Korean on Korean would tell you the same thing- If a guy punches you and you punch back, be prepared to potentially have to fork over some cash.
| Quote: |
| The best weapon, IMO, is a mix of skills and using your BRAIN to make good decisions before a fight even happens. Avoiding the fight mentality altogether is even better, as fewer problems will gravitate towards you. |
Spot on.
Now with all that being said about the unreliability of cops AFTER a fight, calling them BEFORE a fight is not a bad option. Remember, you are a professional, responsible member of society. If someone is acting hostile towards you, you should not hesitate to call the law. That's what the law is for. At some point we need to get beyond our high school mentality concerning the police and remember that they work for us and despite the police horror stories, most will do a good job of defusing a situation.
If not the police, if you are in an establishment, ask the staff to deal with the person. Tell them that the people are harassing and threatening you. If they dither, make it clear that you are prepared to leave IMMEDIATELY (as in without concern for the bill) if something is not done to deal with them.
As Mix1 said, the best thing to do is use your brain and to not fight if at all possible. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
It still proves my point that you ARE allowed to defend yourself here.
Sure in an actual court of law you might lose...but that's a risk anywhere as well as back home.
|
(If we're throwing out random examples to try to make a point, here's one of mine:
A friend never threw a punch but took multiple kicks and punches from a local, luckily all on CCTV. The police initially believed the crazy local that he had been attacked by the foreigner. The CCTV proved him wrong, but the police warned the foreigner that simply grabbing the other guy's jacket was against the law and was an assault! This was while he was getting punched in the face! The local got NO warnings, was treated very well, and his dad came to pick him and then tried to intimidate the foreigner into not pressing charges, and when that didn't work, the bribe offers began... all in front of the police!
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Well, it's either pay the blood money they want or pay the 700,000 won fine and have a conviction on your record. When you go to renew your contract it will prevent you from doing so. As for getting into confrontations, it seems rare. Just every one in a while at random you'll get some d bag Korean approach you and start some crap.
I've de escalated the situation while being ready to bag kick, eye gouge, throat punch, whatever it takes. But obviously, I'd prefer not to have to do that. In spite of written laws, police and court attitudes are very different.
So, if you've reached your savings targets and have gotten near the end of your time here and you're just plain fed up, the next time knock the crap out the gorilla d bag, pay the 700,000 won fine and pack up your things and move on.
Had a friend get into a late night fight with two Korean guys who was actually protecting another foriegner and his kid. When the cops came, the two K dudes lied and the other witnesses didn't say anything as they were scared of the guys or something. So, guess who the cops believed? Two lying guys verses one telling the truth. Then they started asking for ridiculous amounts of money like 10 million won. So, he told the piss off, he paid the 700,000 won fine and has a criminal record in Korea. He's got a K wife and runs his own business, so it prob won't affect him. But, if he wanted to work in a large hakwon or public school, he'd be screwed.
Anyways, as some have said, some of d!(ks do need to be smacked around as they're never challenged. But, you'd have to be ready to kiss Korea goodbye. I don't go around looking for it. But, it can be completely random when it happens, though it's not very often when it does. Still, some Korean guys think they're the center of the universe because they're cuddled and encouraged in it or something.
I've backed out of situations, but also the guy left just as I was getting ready to blow a gasket and come out swinging. Have had a couple of close calls. Whether I'd get my butt whooped or not as it was two of them, I'd get my punches in and get a swipe at some of their soft spots.
At any rate, if more us put the smackdown on these idiots near the end of our time here, at least it would make it easier for other folks in the future. |
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Adam Carolla
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
You ARE supposed to stop at red lights here too. You ARE supposed to signal when you turn. You ARE supposed to/able to do many things here.
That doesn't mean it's what HAPPENS.
Sometimes, TUM, I feel like you have a disconnect from what is actually going on here. Like your information comes from reading, and nothing else.
Have you been involved in numerous incidents with the police? Your close friends? Did they all go to court and decide in the self-defense favor?
If not, please stop talking about what things ARE possible, and perhaps take time to mention what is more probable. |
Hmm... I was under the impression that we were discussing this claim by Mr. waygookin namely, that people can not legally defend themselves here especially foreigners.
I simply proved that incorrect. That was supposed to be the limit of the discussion and not all this other stuff.
Yes it's probable and possible that anything can and would happen...including that you get fined, imprisoned and deported.
ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT IT IS NOT SO BLACK AND WHITE AS WAS CLAIMED ABOVE!
[ |
So, is TUM a mod or not? He's one of the biggest trolls on this site, and I can't, for the life of me, figure out why he wasn't banned years ago. The only explanation is that he's a mod. Of course, that then begs the question, why do the mods of this site post on socks? Where is the transparency? This site will eventually come crashing down due to the fact that the mods have socks that post and the mods will ban users who disagree with their socks. I, myself, will happily munch popcorn as the traffic to this site dwindles to nothing on the basis of the horrible behavior of mods masquerading as users such as TUM. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Both untrue.
Korean law does not require ANYONE Korean or foreigner to stand there and be a punching bag. That is just nonsense.
Let's look at what a couple of Korean lawyers have to say rather than repeating misinformation on Dave's
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Yeah...and running red lights and driving your scooter are illegal in Korea.
What's written down and what's reality are often very far apart, especially here. |
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