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Happamitta
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: How you became fluent in Korean |
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| So, you're fluent or practically fluent in Korean (speaking-wise). How long did it take you to reach this level of ability? What was your method? I'd be very interested to hear from this board's Koreo-linguists. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean... |
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| Happamitta wrote: |
| So, you're fluent or practically fluent in Korean (speaking-wise). How long did it take you to reach this level of ability? What was your method? I'd be very interested to hear from this board's Koreo-linguists. |
There's no secret here. For a native speaker of English to learn a distant language like Korean to an expert level (assuming the person is just the average Jane or Joe) would take 10,000 hours of quality study and practice (that would be a native or near-native level); in order to reach a level that would allow you to study in an academic setting would be about 5,000 hours; to meet day to day requirements but not do anything fancy across topics would be around 2,000 hours.
Again, it depends on time spent practicing/studying and the quality of the practice/study. Time estimates are based on Ericsson's studies and the levels of language ability are based on the ACTFL pyramid. A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:17 am Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean... |
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Hello, Beaver!
How do you figure that "A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years"? I've been working like a Trojan for 4 years and I still can't carry on a conversation. I estimate that I have studied for about 7000 hours.
I'm aspiring for the academic level, so I hope to eventually clock up 15,000 hours. I hope to save up enough to quit work and study Korean 12 hours a day. I was hoping to reach my goal in 1 year, but according to your statistics, it will take me 2 years. |
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Mashimaro
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:40 am Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean... |
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| tomato wrote: |
Hello, Beaver!
How do you figure that "A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years"? I've been working like a Trojan for 4 years and I still can't carry on a conversation. |
I'd say your your study technique needs revising. I guess you are exaggarating when you say you can't carry on a conversation.
Just what level of conversation can you pull off? |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
Hello, Beaver!
How do you figure that "A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years"? I've been working like a Trojan for 4 years and I still can't carry on a conversation. I estimate that I have studied for about 7000 hours.
I'm aspiring for the academic level, so I hope to eventually clock up 15,000 hours. I hope to save up enough to quit work and study Korean 12 hours a day. I was hoping to reach my goal in 1 year, but according to your statistics, it will take me 2 years. |
There are lots of factors and the most basic two are quality and time.
Time
I've studied formally for about 1,200 hours at Yonsei and 400 hours at Sogang. While I'm attending class I also speak Korean with the other students, watch more Korean TV, watch more Korean movies, read more Korean books, and sometimes get exchange partners. The 15 seconds (or less) that I spend speaking with people at store counters or subway booths I don't count (because the time is so incredibly limited).
I have a checklist (it's a sheet of paper covered with little squares and each square represents one hour) and I have about 600 hours ticked off for all the non-classroom hours I've spent practicing Korean (if I watch a Korean movie for two hours I check two boxes). My total is around 2,000 hours, which places me at about intermediate mid on the ACTFL scale, which is accurate because I can fulfill all of my daily needs in Korean as well as adapt to new circumstances; however, I'm easily lost in situations that I haven't experienced before.
Quality
I don't what idiot first thought of studying grammar and calling it language learning. There is incredibly little research which shows that a large amount of grammar study improves language ability, and the few studies that do show it to correlate have been criticized by evaluating language ability based on discrete-point testing -- this facility with grammar on tests does not equate with facility in language situations outside the learning environment.
Quality study can be easily illustrated by likening language skill to musical skill -- if you read books about how to play guitar for 10 hours a day and twang on the guitar for ten minutes a day, unless you're gifted, your guitar playing ability at the end of two years will still suck. That's exactly the same as learning a language -- if you study grammar and vocabulary for 90% of the time and practice for 10% you'll suck for a long long time in any meaningful language task.
My take on your professed lack of facility despite putting in time is that you probably hit the books and know all about Korean but don't hit the practice court enough. There's no magic ratio for study to practice but in my own unorganized empirical data gathering endeavors I've found that about 90% of my students who are exceptionally good at English dismiss grammar and talk about all the episodes of Friends they've watched. For myself, I put grammar/vocabulary study at about 10% of my overall language learning and fill in the other 90% with communicative tasks in the classroom (Sogang not Yonsei), watching movies, reading books, listening to people, and talking to people.
There's a lot more to be said about quality but I am growing weary. |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:05 am Post subject: |
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Osmosis.
I sleep submerged in a vat of kimchi.
Sparkles*_* |
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Mashimaro
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| the_beaver wrote: |
| tomato wrote: |
Hello, Beaver!
How do you figure that "A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years"? I've been working like a Trojan for 4 years and I still can't carry on a conversation. I estimate that I have studied for about 7000 hours.
I'm aspiring for the academic level, so I hope to eventually clock up 15,000 hours. I hope to save up enough to quit work and study Korean 12 hours a day. I was hoping to reach my goal in 1 year, but according to your statistics, it will take me 2 years. |
There are lots of factors and the most basic two are quality and time.
Time
I've studied formally for about 1,200 hours at Yonsei and 400 hours at Sogang. While I'm attending class I also speak Korean with the other students, watch more Korean TV, watch more Korean movies, read more Korean books, and sometimes get exchange partners. The 15 seconds (or less) that I spend speaking with people at store counters or subway booths I don't count (because the time is so incredibly limited).
I have a checklist (it's a sheet of paper covered with little squares and each square represents one hour) and I have about 600 hours ticked off for all the non-classroom hours I've spent practicing Korean (if I watch a Korean movie for two hours I check two boxes). My total is around 2,000 hours, which places me at about intermediate mid on the ACTFL scale, which is accurate because I can fulfill all of my daily needs in Korean as well as adapt to new circumstances; however, I'm easily lost in situations that I haven't experienced before.
Quality
I don't what idiot first thought of studying grammar and calling it language learning. There is incredibly little research which shows that a large amount of grammar study improves language ability, and the few studies that do show it to correlate have been criticized by evaluating language ability based on discrete-point testing -- this facility with grammar on tests does not equate with facility in language situations outside the learning environment.
Quality study can be easily illustrated by likening language skill to musical skill -- if you read books about how to play guitar for 10 hours a day and twang on the guitar for ten minutes a day, unless you're gifted, your guitar playing ability at the end of two years will still suck. That's exactly the same as learning a language -- if you study grammar and vocabulary for 90% of the time and practice for 10% you'll suck for a long long time in any meaningful language task.
My take on your professed lack of facility despite putting in time is that you probably hit the books and know all about Korean but don't hit the practice court enough. There's no magic ratio for study to practice but in my own unorganized empirical data gathering endeavors I've found that about 90% of my students who are exceptionally good at English dismiss grammar and talk about all the episodes of Friends they've watched. For myself, I put grammar/vocabulary study at about 10% of my overall language learning and fill in the other 90% with communicative tasks in the classroom (Sogang not Yonsei), watching movies, reading books, listening to people, and talking to people.
There's a lot more to be said about quality but I am growing weary. |
Yeah so many correlations to be drawn with koreans learning english. they are all theory and and no practise.
I have to smirk to myself when I'm sitting somewhere studying korean and right next to me are some koreans deep in conversation over there english textbook. Do you think they take a golden (and free) chance to strike up a conversation with the waygook... no... they keep studying there english grammar or whatever.
I know they are probably shy and whatever, but it's no excuse. Oh well, at least I'm able to study and drink my coffee in peace  |
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calypso
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Sorry, but I have not met any non-Koreans here who are completely fluent in Korean. Mithridates is probably the closest I have met, so I suggest everyone read his website. |
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the_beaver
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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