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How you became fluent in Korean
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Happamitta

Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Location: Seoul, South Korea

Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: How you became fluent in Korean

So, you're fluent or practically fluent in Korean (speaking-wise). How long did it take you to reach this level of ability? What was your method? I'd be very interested to hear from this board's Koreo-linguists.

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean...

Happamitta wrote:

So, you're fluent or practically fluent in Korean (speaking-wise). How long did it take you to reach this level of ability? What was your method? I'd be very interested to hear from this board's Koreo-linguists.

There's no secret here. For a native speaker of English to learn a distant language like Korean to an expert level (assuming the person is just the average Jane or Joe) would take 10,000 hours of quality study and practice (that would be a native or near-native level); in order to reach a level that would allow you to study in an academic setting would be about 5,000 hours; to meet day to day requirements but not do anything fancy across topics would be around 2,000 hours.

Again, it depends on time spent practicing/studying and the quality of the practice/study. Time estimates are based on Ericsson's studies and the levels of language ability are based on the ACTFL pyramid. A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years.

tomato

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:17 am Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean...

Hello, Beaver! How do you figure that "A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years"? I've been working like a Trojan for 4 years and I still can't carry on a conversation. I estimate that I have studied for about 7000 hours. I'm aspiring for the academic level, so I hope to eventually clock up 15,000 hours. I hope to save up enough to quit work and study Korean 12 hours a day. I was hoping to reach my goal in 1 year, but according to your statistics, it will take me 2 years.

Mashimaro

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:40 am Post subject: Re: You're Fluent in Korean...

tomato wrote:

I'd say your your study technique needs revising. I guess you are exaggarating when you say you can't carry on a conversation.

Just what level of conversation can you pull off?

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:55 am Post subject:

tomato wrote:

Hello, Beaver!

How do you figure that "A devoted average Jane/Joe learner who studies and practices for 50 hours a week could be at an advanced level in two years"? I've been working like a Trojan for 4 years and I still can't carry on a conversation. I estimate that I have studied for about 7000 hours.

I'm aspiring for the academic level, so I hope to eventually clock up 15,000 hours. I hope to save up enough to quit work and study Korean 12 hours a day. I was hoping to reach my goal in 1 year, but according to your statistics, it will take me 2 years.

There are lots of factors and the most basic two are quality and time.

Time

I've studied formally for about 1,200 hours at Yonsei and 400 hours at Sogang. While I'm attending class I also speak Korean with the other students, watch more Korean TV, watch more Korean movies, read more Korean books, and sometimes get exchange partners. The 15 seconds (or less) that I spend speaking with people at store counters or subway booths I don't count (because the time is so incredibly limited).

I have a checklist (it's a sheet of paper covered with little squares and each square represents one hour) and I have about 600 hours ticked off for all the non-classroom hours I've spent practicing Korean (if I watch a Korean movie for two hours I check two boxes). My total is around 2,000 hours, which places me at about intermediate mid on the ACTFL scale, which is accurate because I can fulfill all of my daily needs in Korean as well as adapt to new circumstances; however, I'm easily lost in situations that I haven't experienced before.

Quality

I don't what idiot first thought of studying grammar and calling it language learning. There is incredibly little research which shows that a large amount of grammar study improves language ability, and the few studies that do show it to correlate have been criticized by evaluating language ability based on discrete-point testing -- this facility with grammar on tests does not equate with facility in language situations outside the learning environment.

Quality study can be easily illustrated by likening language skill to musical skill -- if you read books about how to play guitar for 10 hours a day and twang on the guitar for ten minutes a day, unless you're gifted, your guitar playing ability at the end of two years will still suck. That's exactly the same as learning a language -- if you study grammar and vocabulary for 90% of the time and practice for 10% you'll suck for a long long time in any meaningful language task.

My take on your professed lack of facility despite putting in time is that you probably hit the books and know all about Korean but don't hit the practice court enough. There's no magic ratio for study to practice but in my own unorganized empirical data gathering endeavors I've found that about 90% of my students who are exceptionally good at English dismiss grammar and talk about all the episodes of Friends they've watched. For myself, I put grammar/vocabulary study at about 10% of my overall language learning and fill in the other 90% with communicative tasks in the classroom (Sogang not Yonsei), watching movies, reading books, listening to people, and talking to people.

There's a lot more to be said about quality but I am growing weary.

Tiberious aka Sparkles

Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:05 am Post subject:

Osmosis. I sleep submerged in a vat of kimchi. Sparkles_

Mashimaro

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:11 am Post subject:

the_beaver wrote:

tomato wrote:

Yeah so many correlations to be drawn with koreans learning english. they are all theory and and no practise.

I have to smirk to myself when I'm sitting somewhere studying korean and right next to me are some koreans deep in conversation over there english textbook. Do you think they take a golden (and free) chance to strike up a conversation with the waygook... no... they keep studying there english grammar or whatever.

I know they are probably shy and whatever, but it's no excuse. Oh well, at least I'm able to study and drink my coffee in peace Very Happy

calypso

Joined: 31 May 2004

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:44 am Post subject:

Sorry, but I have not met any non-Koreans here who are completely fluent in Korean. Mithridates is probably the closest I have met, so I suggest everyone read his website.

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:47 am Post subject:

calypso wrote:

Sorry, but I have not met any non-Koreans here who are completely fluent in Korean. Mithridates is probably the closest I have met, so I suggest everyone read his website.

I think you've made a semantic mistake. Fluency is the ability to use a language to perform a task with or without mistakes in grammar. It describes the ability to use language to do a task, not to get the right answer on a grammar test.

Yes, Mithridates is probably one of the best but, and this is a big but, I've looked at his style and it's a logical/analytical grammar/vocabulary based style (with lots of practice thrown in) and won't work for the average person.

calypso

Joined: 31 May 2004

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:53 am Post subject:

the_beaver wrote:

calypso wrote:

Sorry, but I have not met any non-Koreans here who are completely fluent in Korean. Mithridates is probably the closest I have met, so I suggest everyone read his website.

Yes, but other than a man I met who has been here 45 years, he is able to communicate more than any other white foreigner I have met. It does not matter how he has learned, he has gotten results with his style.

I won't say you are not better because I have not met you. I just no foreigner I have met is completely fluent.

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:05 am Post subject:

calypso wrote:

He has gotten results with his style. Indeed, most of the Koreans who have learned English successfully without leaving Korea are also successful with that style.

There are two things to remember:

In terms of ways of learning a language it is the least successful for the most people (that's not completely true as Mithridates has altered grammar/translation a bit).

Everybody learns differently and it pays to understand yourself and how you learn best. As an example, Mithridates translates songs and it works for him partially because he likes music; I don't really like music that much so for me that technique would bore me to quit in about 10 minutes.

You have to know your style and learn accordingly.

calypso wrote:

I won't say you are not better because I have not met you. I just no foreigner I have met is completely fluent.

You could say it because I 100% guarantee that he's better than me. I know lots of people better than me and I know lots of people that are completely fluent. Most have learned in the manner I outlined above with one or two Mithridates-type learners (actually, just one).

calypso

Joined: 31 May 2004

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:10 am Post subject:

the_beaver wrote:

Everybody learns differently and it pays to understand yourself and how you learn best. As an example, Mithridates translates songs and it works for him partially because he likes music; I don't really like music that much so for me that technique would bore me to quit in about 10 minutes.

You have to know your style and learn accordingly.

I agree

Quote:

I know lots of people better than me and I know lots of people that are completely fluent. Most have learned in the manner I outlined above with one or two Mithridates-type learners (actually, just one).

Could you elaborate more on what those people who are fluent did?

the_beaver

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:17 am Post subject:

calypso wrote:

Could you elaborate more on what those people who are fluent did?

Sure.

All of the people I know who are really good spent a lot of time at language schools and, in addition, most of them sat around drinking with Koreans. Two of them spent time hanging around in church with Koreans. I know two people who have received MAs in Korea in Korean -- one is a drinker/socializer, and the other went to church all the time.

At it's most basic it's just finding a way to practice/study in a manner that keeps you engaged enough to get all the hours of practice and study that you need.

kiwiboy_nz_99

Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:24 am Post subject:

Quote:

At it's most basic it's just finding a way to practice/study in a manner that keeps you engaged enough to get all the hours of practice and study that you need.

That's easy, it's talking to a sweet girl, maing ...

Happamitta

Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Location: Seoul, South Korea

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:43 pm Post subject: Re

Thanks for the postings. I suppose I should have been more clear as to what I meant by 'fluent.' After a quick Google, I came to this site: http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa072701g.htm which has a useful way of describing one's level of speaking ability. This is from the site:

Quote:

There does not seem to be a universally agreed-upon definition of fluency in the general public. I have heard it described as anything from being able to order food to the language ability of a native speaker. The following table is my version of the closest thing there is to an official definition: what linguists and teachers tend to agree are the basic levels of language aptitude.

Novice
(Beginning)
A novice has extremely limited vocabulary and grammar, understands very little of the language when spoken normally, has difficulty making self understood by native speakers, and thus has serious problems in an immersion situation. A novice may be able to order food in a restaurant, buy a train ticket, and find lodging for the night, but only with great difficulty.

Survivor
(Intermediate)
A survivor converses using basic vocabulary (time, date, weather, family, clothes); uses the present, past, and future tenses more or less correctly; and is aware of difficult grammar topics (e.g., subjunctive, relative pronouns), but either uses them incorrectly or awkwardly rearranges sentences in order to avoid them. Still needs to tote a dictionary and/or phrase book around, but can survive in an immersion situation: order food, give and receive directions, take a taxi, etc.

Conversationalist
(Advanced)
A conversationalist has the ability to converse about fairly abstract ideas, state opinions, read newspapers, understand the language when spoken normally (on TV, radio, film, etc.) with slight-to-moderate difficulty. Still has some trouble with specialized vocabulary and complicated grammar, but can reorganize sentences in order to communicate and figure out the majority of new vocabulary within the context.
Debater
(Fluent)
A fluent speaker can participate in extended conversations, understand the language when spoken normally (on TV, radio, film, etc.), figure out meaning of words within context, debate, and use/understand complicated grammatical structures with little or no difficulty. Has good accent and understands dialects with slight-to-moderate difficulty.

Native speaker
(Mother tongue)
Someone who has spoken the language from at least the age of 5 (this age limit is subject to some debate: I've heard theories that a native speaker can have started learning the language as late as any time up to puberty). In theory, understands essentially everything in the language: all vocabulary, complicated grammatical structures, cultural references, and dialects. Has a native (i.e., invisible, "normal" in his/her region) accent.

So, looking at that chart, I'd say my own wrinkly Korean ability is somewhere in 'Survivor.' The main thing I try to study lately is vocabulary, as knowing only generic words seems to be a big roadblock in understanding someone else's speech (as opposed to your own, where you can skirt past difficult word usage with some imagination). I'd say I study roughly 3 hours a day of Korean (grammar/vocab). I also have "language exchange" partners I meet throughout the week to practice my newly acquired vocab with - that seems to really help the words stick.

As for methods of study, the article linked above had some tips for studying a foreign language:

Quote:

The best and fastest way to learn a language is by immersion (see "Where should I learn?")

If immersion is not feasible for you, here are some other options:

Classes - You can learn a lot by taking a class. After two years of classroom study, dedicated students are usually at the intermediate level, and four years should put you at advanced. However, at some point you will need to be immersed in the language in order to perfect your listening skills and pronunciation.

Want to find or share some self-study tips? Click here!
Daily French

French schools

Study - Study every day. The effort you put into learning makes a huge difference. If you practice every day you'll learn and remember a lot more than someone who goes to class once a week but never practices outside of class. Like music, art, dance, and pretty much every other skill, practice makes perfect. Even after you becoming fluent, you will still need to practice - it's unfortunately very easy to lose your language, even if you were once fluent.

Self-study resources - The internet, software, books, and tapes/CDs are tools that can help you learn, but I don't believe that someone can learn a language using only these methods. You can certainly memorize the rules of grammar, verb conjugations, and vocabulary; learn the basics of reading and writing; and master other such "mechanical" functions. But it is essential to talk to people in order to work on your listening skills (different people have different accents and tempos) and speaking skills (to practice your pronunciation and make sure that they can understand you).

(The article is about people learning French, particularly)

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