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Democracy - Hah! They've never had it so bad. -- Iraq
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hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject:

gdimension wrote:

Quote:

Believe it or not, some Muslim women are happier dressed like that in public than in designer dresses and make-up. Not all, but some.

I'm far from an expert on Muslim dress-codes, but how would we know that some women are happier dressed like that? For the record, I agree with you - I think that some must prefer to be clothed in that way, but....

By asking them? Smile

FWIW I know a couple of Western women who dress plainly or in clothing sold as male, too. Certainly I know women who wouldn't be seen dead in designer dresses and make-up who aren't at all muslim.

When such a dress code is forced on women, it's bad. When it's their choice out of respect for their religion (like a Sikh male's turban or a Jewish boy's skullcap) I don't see the problem.

Quote:

I understand wearing traditional clothing was the law under Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, but what about in other Islamic countries? What is the situation for Muslims living in the West? Is there more leeway?

It's still the law in some - and in others, like Iran, it's not so much the clothing that's important as what it covers (i.e. everything). In places like Turkey you'd have a hard time telling apart the clothing of Westerners and locals.

Maybe BB has more info about the rest of the Middle East - I'm not so hot on there.

EDIT: Oh, he beat me to it...

In the West, any pressure to cover up would come from family and friends.

Quote:

And what about familial and societal pressure (as opposed to laws and rules from the government/mosques)? Could your average Muslim female in **country** wear what she wants and still be considered a true Muslim? I'm guessing the answer again depends on what country we are talking about...

My point is that sometimes "what she wants" IS the religious wear. If it isn't... well, every woman has to follow her own path. For some, that is made extremely difficult by the religious leanings of the family (as happens with most religions). For others, it's easier.

As with so often with Islam, it's incredibly hard to generalise. Not that that stops people trying.. Wink

Last edited by hypnotist on Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

hypnotist

Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject:

Oops. Last edited by hypnotist on Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

Derrek

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject:

rok_the-boat wrote:

View the initial post in the light of the fact that Bush is struggling to escape the WMD fake purpose of the war and now trying to lay down foundation for removing a bad guy and replacing him with DEMOCRACY.

And please wake up to the reality of what has taken place in the Middle East.

A foreign power entered their land, overcame one of their more powerful nations in short period of time, changed the government to a friendly one, and has succeeded in recruiting thousands of individuals to join the new army of police officers who will police their own country in the future -- based on the new pro-US government.

All in just a few years.

Give Iraq a chance. It will be decades before true democracy takes root and shows its benefits. And we all know it would be happening quicker if it weren't for Iran/Syrian-funded insurgents weren't blowing up every public works project they could find.

Growing pains are inevitable.

Overall, this has been a massive embarrassment for the rest of the anti-US Middle Eastern world, and it is taking its toll on their own governments as well as local citizens demand more of their own freedoms.

Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject:

rapier wrote:

Islam has always placed a high value on women's rights. they can have their own careers and independence, and a wide choice of fashionable clothes to wear. They also get to realise and express their sexuality, and individuality. I'm sure they're quite happy.

Historically, you were far better off being a women in a Muslim society than in a Christian society. On average, muslim women were accorded far better rights than Christian women.

It's only in the last century or so that western women have caught up and surpassed their muslim equivalents. My great great grandmother was the property of her father until she became the property of her husband. All her children were the property of her husband and liable to be taken from her in the event of a divorce. He could beat the bloody hell out of her and do what he liked with her short of killing her. It was very rare for women to inherit (just read Jane Austen if you want to know the worry that caused women), but muslim women were due a certain inheritance when their parents passed on.

All in all, if I had to be born as a woman 200 years ago, I'd prefer to be a (non Wahhabi) muslim woman than a Christian one.

Derrek

Joined: 15 Jan 2003

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject:

Infoseeker wrote:

rapier wrote:

And in all of these years, how much has changed for these women?

khyber

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject:

Quote:

A foreign power entered their land, overcame one of their more powerful nations in short period of time, changed the government to a friendly one,

friendly? Isn't there a LARGE section of the population who don't really consider them overly friendly or tolerant?
Better than saddam sure, but "friendly" may be too loose a word.

Quote:

And in all of these years, how much has changed for these women?

perhaps the point is not about "change".

bigverne

Joined: 12 May 2004

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:22 am Post subject:

Quote:

All in all, if I had to be born as a woman 200 years ago, I'd prefer to be a (non Wahhabi) muslim woman than a Christian one.

Aren't you more concerned about the state of women in muslim countries now?

Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject:

bigverne wrote:

Quote:

All in all, if I had to be born as a woman 200 years ago, I'd prefer to be a (non Wahhabi) muslim woman than a Christian one.

Aren't you more concerned about the state of women in muslim countries now?

Which muslim countries are you talking about? There are many muslim countries. For example, women in Tunisia and Libya enjoy a fair bit of freedom and have a relatively easy time.

Long before 911, in the late nineties, I was very concerned with the plight of the Afghanistan women under the Taleban, and lent my time and money to RAWA (Revolutionary Association and of the Women of Afghanistan) and raising awareness about that. Of course, at that time no-one much really gave a toss and Blair and Clinton (and later Bush) were turning a very blind eye to it all..

Are you really very bothered about the plight of women in various countries? I seriously doubt it. It's not just Muslim women having a rough time, there are many Hindu, Christian and Buddhist women living under brutal male subjugation. I doubt that you really care about that, and I doubt that you've ever lent your support to a women's charity or battered women's refuge in your own country.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the foul treatment of women by certain sectors of the world muslim population is just a nice handy stick to beat all muslims with, and help you feel nice and mighty self-righteous.

rapier

Joined: 16 Feb 2003

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:35 pm Post subject:

[quote="Infoseeker"]

Quote:

women in Tunisia and Libya enjoy a fair bit of freedom and have a relatively easy time.

Wrong. On a scale of 1-7 (7 being the worst), Libya scores a solid 7 and Tunisia a 6 for the state of womens rights. W'ere talking lack of acess to legal representation, domestic abuse, employment, status etc. Have a look at the information tables of this survey undertaken by Freedom house, a leading non-partisan organisation researching and aadvancing the cause of human rights.

Women��s Rights in the Middle East and North Africa: Citizenship and Justice

"The goal of this survey is to facilitate and support national and international efforts to empower women in the Middle East and North Africa region through the comparative evaluation of women��s rights in 17 selected countries and territories. These countries, where women��s rights remain a salient issue, are: Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Palestine (Palestinian Authority and Israeli-Occupied Territories), Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen."

http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/menasurvey/

Quote:

I doubt that you've ever lent your support to a women's charity or battered women's refuge in your own country.

Not sure about Bigverne, but i have made a couple donations to womens charities and refuges.

Quote:

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the foul treatment of women by certain sectors of the world muslim population is just a nice handy stick to beat all muslims with, and help you feel nice and mighty self-righteous.

Its across the board in Islamic countries. Why not feel self congratulatory if you are from a country that celebrates the equal status of women?. A spade is a spade: women are treated wretchedly in Muslim countries.

The women of Islam" Lisa beyer, Time, Nov 2001
"Nowhere in the muslim world are women treated as equals".
http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,185647,00.html

"A woman's rampant desires and irresistible attractiveness gives her a power over men that even rivals God's. She must be contained, for her unbridled sexuality poses a direct danger to the social order."
http://danielpipes.org/article/1823

International petition to save the lives of women and children sentenced to death/lashings etc in Iran:
http://www.zhilaa.com/english.htm

Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:08 pm Post subject:

Libya is hardly Saudi Arabia, and is making some headway as far as women's rights are concerned.

Quote:

Al Qathafi determined to give Libyan women equal rights
Libya, Culture, 9/13/2003

Libya's Leader of the Revolution Colonel Muammar al Qathafi Thursday was presented with a medal, in recognition of his efforts in the enhancement of women's freedom and upgrading women status in Libyan society.

Al Qathafi addressed the women officers in varius Libyan institutions and said that "the reason for dedicating this year's anniversary of the great al Fateh Revolution to the honouring of Libyan women and demonstrating her power is that Libyan women score highly, at a time when men are being complacent and left women to be at the forefront," the official Libyan news agency quoted him saying in a report.

Al Qathafi "emphasized that the reason for honoring women by the great al Fateh Revolution is to reward women for their efforts in all areas, as women responded to the cry of freedom," asserting that "Libyan women assume the first place amongst Arab women in venturing various areas."

Al Qathafi praised "the African women who are prominent amongst world women as having strong characters and play important roles within their societies."

Al Qathafi said Libya is determined to establish a society "where there is total equality between men and women.

Certainly the lot of women in rural Libya is not very enviable, but certainly in cities such as Tripoli the status of women is advancing. Dragging the rural communitiy into the modern age is always a difficult task in any country, and in Libya it's been promoted from the top down.

Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:19 pm Post subject:

A far better example than Libya though, is Tunisia. Tunisia is well known for its progressive treatment of women in the muslim world. The current president has also made it his mission.

Quote:

Women's rights

The principle of equality of men and women with respect to citizenship and before the law is expressly stipulated in the Tunisian constitution and the country's laws.

It is confirmed in the Constitution, article 6 of which states: "All citizens have the same rights and the same duties. They are equal before the law"; articles 20 and 21 recognize to women the right to vote and to stand for public office.
The Code of Personal Status, promulgated on August 13, 1956, abolished polygamy, instituted judicial divorce, set the minimum age for marriage at 17 for women and made it contingent upon their own consent, and gave widows the right to custody of their minor children.

Since the Change of November 7, 1987, several measures have been taken to strengthen the gains of Tunisian women, with a view of doing away with gender discrimination and establishing partnership between spouses, for the benefit of children and the family.

� On the constitutional level :

On October 27, 1997, President Ben Ali promulgates a constitutional law granting eligibility to election to parliament to any voter with one Tunisian parent, without distinction as to whether that parent is the father or the mother.

� Amendments to the Code of Personal Status (July 12, 1993):
� * The obligation is laid upon both spouses of "treating each other with mutual respect and assisting each other in managing the household and the children's affairs," replacing a clause which prescribed that "a woman must obey her husband and respect his prerogatives."
� Consent of the mother to the marriage of her child, when the latter is a minor.
� Participation of the mother in the management of her children's affairs.
� Granting a married woman who is a minor the right to manage her own private life and affairs, thanks to emancipation through marriage (Art. 153 of the CSP).
� Creation of a fund ensuring payment of alimony and child support to divorced women and their children. Payments are made from this fund on the basis of binding court decisions in favor of divorced women and children born of their union with the defaulting payer, when difficulties are encountered executing these judgments.
� Amendments to the Code of Nationality, the Penal Code and the Labor Code:
� Provision that a Tunisian woman married to a non-Tunisian may legally transmit her nationality to her child, provided the father consents.
� Strengthening of the penalties for marital violence, and considering the bonds of matrimony as constituting an aggravating circumstance.
� Non-discrimination between men and women in all aspects of labor.
� Measures of April 5, 1996 :
� Granting of child support automatically to divorced women who have been granted custody of their children.
� Standardization of the criteria for the granting of social welfare benefits in the public and private sectors, to ensure gender equality.
� Maintenance of the payment of orphans' pensions to children pursuing higher studies, up to the age of 25.
� Allowing both spouses the possibility of contracting a personal loan for the purchase of the family dwelling.
� Measures of August 11, 1997 :
� Intensification of social protection for women and children of modest means, and favoring of access to the services of the Alimony and Child Support Fund. The obtention of legal assistance will be facilitated to these ends.
� Adaptation of the rules governing the age of children benefitting from the Fund's services to those of the Code of Personal Status concerning the same subject.
� Making of the necessary clarifications and changes in the Code of Obligations and Contracts to bring it into step with the situation and role of women in the economic sphere.
- Publication of constitutional law no.97-65 of October 27, 1997, amending and completing certain articles of the Constitution, and providing for the right for every Tunisian citizen born to a Tunisian mother to present his or her candidacy for the Chamber of Deputies, thus consecrating gender equality. Previously, only citizens born to a Tunisian father could apply to the Chamber of Deputies.
� Promulgation of decree no.671-98 of March 16, 1998, amending decree of August 9, 1993, regulating the functioning of the child support and alimony fund.
This decree strengthens protection of divorced women and their children, enabling them to take advantage of the services of this Fund more easily and for a longer time.
- Publication of law no.98-94 of November 9th, 1998, relating to the system of community property, to benefit the family and its cohesiveness.
This law strengthens Tunisia�s legislation and confers a moral and material dimension aiming at protecting women�s rights and consolidating stability of the family.
- Promulgation of the Code of private international law by law no.98-97 of November 27, 1998, with a view to guaranteeing the rights of Tunisian women married to foreigners, with regard to applicable law and competent juridiction. This Code provides that when one of the spouses is a native of a country where poligamy is permitted, officers in charge of civil status and notaries will conclude marriage only on presentation of an official document certifying that the spouse is not bound by any other marital bond (Art. 46).
� Institutional reforms:
Four mechanisms have been set up in recent years to give yet greater concrete expression to this policy in favor of women: The Ministry of Women and the Family; the Center for Research, Documentation and Information on Women (CREDIF); the National Council for Women and the Family, the structure of which has just been strengthened, by decision of the President, through the creation of three commissions responsible for preparing an annual report on the enforcement of law and equality of opportunities and on the image of women in the media; and the National Observatory for Women.

Adoption of a national plan of action in favor of rural women with the main objective of giving impetus to rural women�s integration into the development process and improving their living conditions (December 7, 1998).
Consolidating women�s presence in the government and legislative and consultative bodies : two women are members of the government (Minister of Women and Family and Minister of Environment and Land Planning); a woman chairs the National Audit Office and another is Administrative Mediator.

Main indicators :
� 99% of Tunisian 6-year-old girls were enrolled in school in 1998.
� The proportion of women in the secondary schools is 50.2% in 1998.
� In higher education, female enrollment is 80,196 women in 1999, who thus make up 48.3% of the total number of students at this level.
� Life expectancy among women: 73.4 years in 1997.
� Deliveries performed with medical assistance: 81.6% in 1997.
� The Tunisian National Women's Union (UNFT) was awarded the UNESCO prize for 1994, during the international year to eradicate illiteracy.
� Participation in the labor force: Women make up nearly one-quarter of Tunisia's working population. Some 2,000 women are heads of businesses.

� On the level of the legislative power and advisory bodies: The proportions of female representation here are: 11.5% in the Chamber of Deputies, 16.7% on the municipal councils, 11% on the Economic and Social Council, 13.3% on the Higher Council of the Magistracy, and 12% among ministry departmental staff.

� Women�s participation in associations: 20 women's associations have been created since November 7, 1987, in addition to the National Union of Tunisian Women (UNFT), created in 1956.

And here from the Washington Post:

Quote:

Tunisia leads fight for women's rights in Arab world

By Andrew Borowiec
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
June 8, 2005

NABEUL, Tunisia
"We have graduated from equality to partnership," said Rafia Ben Ezzedine of the Tunisian women who helped bar the path to Islamic fundamentalism in this North African country.
"Our present status is not a gift. We have worked for it and still do," she added.
Mrs. Ezzedine is the first female appellate court judge in Tunisia -- and in the Arab world -- and an example of the gender evolution in a country that has stunned the Arab world with its liberal concepts of women's roles.
Statistics tell the story: Thirty-six percent of judges in Tunisia are women, as are 31 percent of the country's lawyers, 51 percent of doctors and 58 percent of university students.
Ten years ago, the number of women heading commercial enterprises was 1,000; now it is 10,000. They include the head of the Tunis Stock Exchange and the main French-language daily newspaper. Women earn the same salaries as men and have the right to choose to have an abortion.
Western chanceries consider Tunisia's treatment of women as the most successful reform in this pro-Western country, and a rampart against Islamic fundamentalism.
"Here, women would never allow any encroachment on their rights, now deeply embedded in society," said a World Bank official.
Mrs. Ezzedine, a mother of two, is driven 40 miles every day from Tunis to Nabeul to preside at court sessions. En route, she reads the documents of the cases she will hear.
She believes that being a judge is not just a profession, but a mission.
"We must respect the dignity of the accused, who have yet to be definitely condemned," she said.
At the Center for Research, Studies, Documentation and Information on Women in Tunis, Saida Rahmouni is categorical. "No development in any country is possible without women," she said.
The center analyzes the problems of women in education and their careers and makes recommendations to relevant authorities. "Our women have been liberated. Now we are integrating them in political, social and economic life," she said.
Nassima Ghannouchi, a member of the Chamber of Deputies, the lower house of Tunisia's parliament, said women "have achieved a lot, but we should continue to advance."
"We cannot afford to stagnate."
Twenty-two percent of Tunisia's lawmakers are women, and the proportion is expected to increase to 30 percent in the next election in 2009. Such a growth is relatively easy. The Democratic Constitutional Rally (RCD), the governing party, simply makes sure the required number of female candidates is on its ballots, and their victory is virtually guaranteed.
"When I was a student, I never dreamed of political life," said Monia Derouiche, a member of parliament with a French doctorate in pharmaceutical science. "I have been stimulated by the whole atmosphere, and the president," Zine el Abidine Ben Ali.

Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject:

rapier wrote:

Why not feel self congratulatory if you are from a country that celebrates the equal status of women?. A spade is a spade: women are treated wretchedly in Muslim countries.

Ha. I have to laugh my head off when I see silly sexist Derrek harping on about women's rights. This is the guy who's complained in some of his posts that western women should be following Korean women's example by wearing more make up and high heels. It is apparantly their duty to make themselves beautiful for Derrek, and nothing less should be accepted.

I hardly think the Bigvernes and Derreks of this world would be lending their support to the various women's movements going on in the last century had they not been born in a time when society has at last conditioned men to see women as (almost) their equals (as long as they make themselves look pretty of course).

junkmail

Joined: 08 Jan 2005

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:52 am Post subject:

Quote:

Women weren't wearing Burkhas in Iraq before.
It was a secular country. Women were educated and had jobs.
Not being a democracy gave you no right to invade them.
We'll see if it remains secular or whether you've just unleashed a nightmare.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:17 am Post subject:

Tunisian women are hot. The only arab woman to hit on me was tunisian. That was the only thing I liked about the country: talking to the females. Well ok, there were a couple other nice things about it but they're not as important. President Ben Ali is a dictator and a-hole though. I've never been in a more politically repressive country than Tunisia.

Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:36 am Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

President Ben Ali is a dictator and a-hole though. I've never been in a more politically repressive country than Tunisia.

Then you've never been to China.

There's another side to the coin regarding Tunisia. Other North Africans report that the police are "strict" in Tunisia, but that they feel safer there as the crime rate is lower, and that given the choice they'd much prefer to live in Tunisa than neighbouring countries.

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