|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
|
 Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
Wow! A whole week has gone by and you still have nothing constructive to contribute to an adult conversation, do you?
Oh well. Maybe next weekend. |
Challenging your assumptions is constructive. Now grow up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| hypnotist wrote: |
| I still find it amusing to have to defend the concept of immigration on a board for ex-pats. |
99.9% of the people on this board are not immigrants. The temporary stay of the expats on this board is irrelevant to the issue of immigration. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| shakuhachi wrote: |
| hypnotist wrote: |
| I still find it amusing to have to defend the concept of immigration on a board for ex-pats. |
99.9% of the people on this board are not immigrants. The temporary stay of the expats on this board is irrelevant to the issue of immigration. |
We may not be migrants in the strictest sense, but we are still foreigners living in another country so in the broadest sense I would argue it is relevant. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| We may not be migrants in the strictest sense, but we are still foreigners living in another country so in the broadest sense I would argue it is relevant. |
Most foreigners here are on a glorified holiday. The rest rarely receive citizenship, and eventually return home, or move to other countries elsewhere in Asia. They don't impinge on Korea's level of homogeneity, or culture either. Immigrants in the west become citizens, rapidly alter the level of homogeneity, give birth to children who automatically become citizens, and in many cases spend their entire lifes living in their adopted country. The impact of mass immigration in the west, and the impact of a tiny expat community working temporarily in Korea is not even remotely analogous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Gwangjuboy wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| We may not be migrants in the strictest sense, but we are still foreigners living in another country so in the broadest sense I would argue it is relevant. |
Most foreigners here are on a glorified holiday. The rest rarely receive citizenship, and eventually return home, or move to other countries elsewhere in Asia. They don't impinge on Korea's level of homogeneity, or culture either. Immigrants in the west become citizens, rapidly alter the level of homogeneity, give birth to children who automatically become citizens, and in many cases spend their entire lifes living in their adopted country. The impact of mass immigration in the west, and the impact of a tiny expat community working temporarily in Korea is not even remotely analogous. |
Yeah its funny to hear Koreans say Korea is "cosmopolitain-full of many foreigners" sometimes. When, clearly 99% of them are temporary visitors/migrant workers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| In the interests of balance, would you care to mention any hate crimes commited by whites recently, such as the cousin of Everton footballer Joey Barton who killed himself a "*beep*"? |
But that's the point isn't it? When it comes to racially motivated attacks, there is no balance. How else do you explain why the Anthony Walker case caused such a media stir, whereas this received hardly any coverage at all. Why are there 50 related news stories on the Anthony Walker case, and only 1 for Mr. Yates? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Back on the topic of the lack of balance in the media in regards to racially motivated crime. If you follow media reporting about race you would assume that the majority of racist incidents were white on black. This is not only due to the media bias when reporting racial crime, as demonstrated in the Anthony Walker case, but due to the ethnic makeup of Britain.
The UK is around 90% white, with 10% ethnic minorities. If we were to assume that all groups are equally racist, then we could expect around 90% of racially motivated crime to be white on black crime. In fact, the reverse is true, although this fact is almost never reported. Even the Police Crime Reduction website, which reveals these shocking figures does its best not to draw attention to this fact. It takes a bit of calculating by the reader to work out the figures for himself.
Here is the first figure
Estimates from the British Crime Survey (2000) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html indicate that the number of incidents, which were considered by the victim to be racially motivated, fell from 382,000 in 1995 to 280,000 in 1999 (down 27%).
The British Crime Survey (2000) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html found that the number of racially motivated incidents committed against ethnic minorities fell from 143,000 in 1995 to 98,000 in 1999 (down 32%).
http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/toolkits/rh0208.htm
Let's take the 1999 figure. The total number of incidents considered to be racially motivated was 280,000. Of those 280,000 incidents, 98,000 were committed against ethnic minorities. However, the report does not then go on to say, perhaps because it is a little too taboo, that the remaining 182,000 racially motivated incidents were committed against whites. So, in 1999, 65% of all racially motivated crimes were committed against whites, and 35% percent were committed against minorities. In fact, the percentage of racially motivated crimes committed against whites has increased, from 62% in 1995 to 65% in 1999.
I have been unable to find recent figures, but I very much doubt that they would have changed greatly in just 5 years. So, we have a situation where 9% of the population is committing over 60% of the racially motivated incidents. You would never know that from the media portrayal of racial crime. Perhaps some of the liberals on here would care to explain the fact the ethnic minorities are 6 times more likely than whites to commit racist offences. Personally, I blame years of liberal education and media coverage which has created the perception, in the minds of minorities, that the white man is responsible for all their ills, and that racism is keeping them down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
The UK is around 90% white, with 10% ethnic minorities. If we were to assume that all groups are equally racist, then we could expect around 90% of racially motivated crime to be white on black crime. In fact, the reverse is true, although this fact is almost never reported. Even the Police Crime Reduction website, which reveals these shocking figures does its best not to draw attention to this fact. It takes a bit of calculating by the reader to work out the figures for himself.
[...]
So, in 1999, 65% of all racially motivated crimes were committed against whites, and 35% percent were committed against minorities. In fact, the percentage of racially motivated crimes committed against whites has increased, from 62% in 1995 to 65% in 1999. |
This is true, but you seem to have lost sight of the fact that whites massively outnumber ethnic minorities in the UK - the upshot being that 12% of crime against ethnic minorities was racially motivated whereas only somewhere between 1 and 2% of crime against whites were - and while the chance of a white person falling victim to a racist crime is thus tiny, the same is not true for ethnic minorities. By my very rough back-of-the-matchbox calculations an ethnic minority person has a 2% chance of being the victim of a racially motivated attack whereas the chance for a white person is 0.4%. Perhaps that is the difference.
| Quote: |
| I have been unable to find recent figures, but I very much doubt that they would have changed greatly in just 5 years. So, we have a situation where 9% of the population is committing over 60% of the racially motivated incidents. You would never know that from the media portrayal of racial crime. Perhaps some of the liberals on here would care to explain the fact the ethnic minorities are 6 times more likely than whites to commit racist offences. |
Well, given they're far more likely to fall victim to racist attacks, plus the institutional racism and general community problems of education and so on, I don't think it's that surprising. Sadly. It's widely accepted that crime increases as social inequality increases (I'm not going to touch on causality here, but correlation can hardly be denied), and the black community in particular is disadvantaged compared to the country as a whole.
(It might be worth pointing out that, if you looked at the figures and ignored race completely, you'd almost certainly find out that well under 1% of the population commits 95%+ of racially motivated crime - it's not an everyday activity for either whites or blacks).
It's also worth noting that there is evidence for both under-reporting and under-recording of racial motivation for crime.
| Quote: |
| Personally, I blame years of liberal education and media coverage which has created the perception, in the minds of minorities, that the white man is responsible for all their ills, and that racism is keeping them down. |
Well, you would, wouldn't you?  (Out of interest, have you ever actually heard this view expressed in conversation with people from ethnic minorities? I've seen it on TV but never heard it myself.) Whether this is true or not, the irrefutable facts are that institutional racism does exist in the UK and it is much harder for people from ethnic minorities to get jobs*, and that individuals from ethnic minorities are far more likely to suffer from racially motivated crime than white individuals. I think, for that reason, the media focus is fair. The issue of why more crime is caused by the black community in general (and why the black population of our prisons is so out of proportion) is a completely different issue - and one that is, I'll concede, too often neglected.
* http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3885213.stm and similar |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doutdes
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
Estimates from the British Crime Survey (2000) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html indicate that the number of incidents, which were considered by the victim to be racially motivated, fell from 382,000 in 1995 to 280,000 in 1999 (down 27%).
The British Crime Survey (2000) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/bcs1.html found that the number of racially motivated incidents committed against ethnic minorities fell from 143,000 in 1995 to 98,000 in 1999 (down 32%).
|
Did you notice a bit of a difference between those two studies? I'll give you a hint, which were considered by the victim to be racially motivated. What are the criteria for the second report for a crime to be found to be racially motivated? The disparity does not necessarily show a difference between crimes committed by whites compared to crimes committed by minorities, but rather crimes that were truly based on race and crimes that the victim thought were based upon race. You're comparing apples to oranges. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Doutdes wrote: |
Did you notice a bit of a difference between those two studies? I'll give you a hint, which were considered by the victim to be racially motivated. What are the criteria for the second report for a crime to be found to be racially motivated? The disparity does not necessarily show a difference between crimes committed by whites compared to crimes committed by minorities, but rather crimes that were truly based on race and crimes that the victim thought were based upon race. You're comparing apples to oranges. |
He's not - both figures come from the BCS, and the BCS calculates the figure by explicitly asking the victim whether the crime was racially motivated or not.
I still don't agree with his conclusions though. I also found this:
| Quote: |
Ethnic minorities are more likely to be victims of crimes and serious threats than whites. The main reasons for this are their age structure, their socio-economic characteristics and the type of area they live in.
In general, minority victims in all groups are no less likely than whites to report offences to the police; and in some cases they are actually more likely to do so. However, minority victims are much less satisfied with the police response.
The proportion of all minority respondents in the BCS who had been victims of racially motivated incidents in the preceding year was four per cent for Afro-Caribbeans, five per cent for Indians and eight per cent for Pakistanis.
Nearly a third of Pakistani victims said that incidents were racially motivated and this rose to 70% in the case of threats. The average figure for Indians was lower, at just under a fifth; for Afro-Caribbean victims it was 14%.
Racially motivated incidents are more likely to be reported to the police by Indians than other types of crime; but both Afro-Caribbeans and Pakistanis are less inclined to report these incidents. Victims are even less satisfied with the police response to the racial incidents they report than with the police response to other types of crimes and threats.
Fear of crime is higher among the Asian groups than whites even when allowance is made for other relevant factors.
In areas where racial attacks are perceived as a problem, both minority and white respondents tend to have higher levels of fear of crime.
|
Maybe there are some answers for BV in there.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/r39.pdf |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Did you notice a bit of a difference between those two studies? |
No, because it is the same study, the British Crime Survey. Perhaps you do not know, but in the UK, the new definition of a 'racist incident' is one that is 'perceived by the victim to be racist'. This definition grew out of the Stephen Lawrence inquiry.
So, the total number of racist incidents in 1999 was 280,000. This means that there were 280,000 incidents wherethe victim believed the attack to be racially motivated. Out of those 280,000 incidents, which were considered to be racially motivated, 98,000 took place against ethnic minorities, and the rest against whites. It is you who are confused. Perhaps the wording is confusing, but they are figures from the same study, which clearly show that most racist incidents are committed by minorities against whites.
| Quote: |
| By my very rough back-of-the-matchbox calculations an ethnic minority person has a 2% chance of being the victim of a racially motivated attack whereas the chance for a white person is 0.4%. Perhaps that is the difference. |
But the point is, that, all things being equal, you would expect that figure to be much higher.
| Quote: |
| Well, given they're far more likely to fall victim to racist attacks, plus the institutional racism and general community problems of education and so on, I don't think it's that surprising. |
And all this explains why they commit racist crime at over 6 times the rate for whites? By the way white people too suffer 'general community problems of education and so on', which seems like a rather lazy excuse for such crime. Need I remind you that the majority of poor people in the UK are actually white. Could it be that we have imported into our country many people who disdain our culture, and as a result have contempt for whites in general. No, let's blame some shadowy 'institutional racism', a term which has very little basis and which does not take into account the relative success of some ethnic groups.
| Quote: |
| the black community in particular is disadvantaged compared to the country as a whole. |
While that is true, all of the recent racist murders of whites have been committed by Pakistanis and not Blacks.
What I would like to see is some more balance in this debate about race. Let's stop with the nonsense that racism is simply a minority problem. Let's give white victims the same treatment as black victims, and let's stop perpetuating the myth that racism only effects minorities, when the truth is that the majority of victims are white.
| Quote: |
| Out of interest, have you ever actually heard this view expressed in conversation with people from ethnic minorities? |
Many, many times. I went to a school that was about 40% Asian, and many of them would blame all of their woes on 'racism'. If they failed a test, were treated badly or were disciplined by a teacher, the race card would quickly come into play. I have also heard such people use this excuse when they did not get a job. Rather than look at their own shortcomings, they immediately blame white society and 'institutional racism', and for such ill feeling the blame rests squarely at the doors of people such as yourself, who display a perverse kind of racism when you treat minorities like children who can never be held accoutable for anything.
| Quote: |
| I think, for that reason, the media focus is fair. |
You think it is fair that Anthony Walker received a barrage of media coverage whereas the white man beaten to death by Asians was not? Is that really fair? The media focus is totally biased, and as long as it continues more and more people, who are the victims of ethnic racist crime will begin to sympathise with the BNP when they see such bias.
Why is it that statistics which show that minorities are under respresented in certain professions are splashed all over the paper, whereas ethnic over representation in street crime and gang rape are never reported, and if they are, they are quickly hushed up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you look at the Crimestoppers 'Most Wanted' website, there is something rather revealing about the ethnic background of those wanted for the most serious offence of murder.
http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/wanted/ukmostwanted/
UK Most Wanted
1. Muzzaker Imtiaz SHAH (Pakistani, born UK) - Murder
2. Mustaf JAMA (Somali, born UK) - Murder
3. Dana Abdul Qadir ABDULLAH (Iraqi Kurd) - Murder
4. Tony KARIM (Iraqi) - Murder
5. Hayman MUSTAFA - Murder
6. James Francis HURLEY - Murder
7. Ayub KHAN - Double murder
8. Yousef Ahmed WAHID (Lebanese) - Murder
9. Sukhdip Sing CHHINA (Indian) - Murder
10. Ibrahim BANGURA (Sierra Leone) - Murder
11. Saifullah SIDDIQI - Murder
12. Thomas PIOVESANA - Attempted Murder
So, out of the twelve most wanted for murder, or attempted murder, only two are white (and one appears Eastern European). The others are either asylum seekers, immigrants, or minorities born in the UK. Quite a shocking over representation. In fact, it is rather difficult to get accurate figures on race and crime, perhaps because they might be considered too dangerous. However, if ever you happen to look at 'Crimewatch' the ethnic makeup of crime in the UK soon becomes clear. On a recent episode, 9 out of 11 wanted for rape offences were minorities. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| By my very rough back-of-the-matchbox calculations an ethnic minority person has a 2% chance of being the victim of a racially motivated attack whereas the chance for a white person is 0.4%. Perhaps that is the difference. |
But the point is, that, all things being equal, you would expect that figure to be much higher. |
But all things aren't equal, not at all. I've already shown, above, that different groups are not equally likely to report / admit to being victims of racially-motivated attacks.
It's worth remembering that the definition of racially-motivated swings both ways - this means a lot of white people are reporting being victims of racially-motivated crime. Racism probably gets mixed up in that, too! It is an area that could do with more research, however - I'm not convinced the raw numbers are anything like the real story (on either side).
| Quote: |
| And all this explains why they commit racist crime at over 6 times the rate for whites? |
Maybe whites blame race for the crime six times as often as blacks? Anyway, I was trying to be generic about crime at this point. I don't think the raw figures can take us very far.
| Quote: |
| By the way white people too suffer 'general community problems of education and so on', which seems like a rather lazy excuse for such crime. Need I remind you that the majority of poor people in the UK are actually white. |
May I remind you that crime levels are higher in these areas, too?
| Quote: |
| Could it be that we have imported into our country many people who disdain our culture, and as a result have contempt for whites in general. No, let's blame some shadowy 'institutional racism', a term which has very little basis and which does not take into account the relative success of some ethnic groups. |
It's hardly shadowy - its effects have been clearly and openly researched and accounted for. And it certainly does take into account the success of some ethnic groups - perhaps you're missing the point of it?
But no, let's blame the stupid blacks who aren't clever enough to get off their arses and do an honest day's work before cheerfully being stopped and searched by the local police officer, thanking him for the banana joke and heading home to sing the praises of the wonderful white men and men running the country, eh?
Come on, I'm doing my best to meet you in the middle here. To try and imply institutional racism is some fiction dreamed up by liberals is codswallop. And I'm not saying these communities couldn't do more.
| Quote: |
| While that is true, all of the recent racist murders of whites have been committed by Pakistanis and not Blacks. |
Exactly how many is "all"? In any case, murder is still rare enough in the UK to make trends hard to spot.
| Quote: |
| What I would like to see is some more balance in this debate about race. Let's stop with the nonsense that racism is simply a minority problem. |
Sure, and let's stop with the nonsense that racism doesn't really exist in the UK and it's all the fault of the ethnic minority communities and their paranoia.
| Quote: |
| Let's give white victims the same treatment as black victims |
In what way is it different?
| Quote: |
| and let's stop perpetuating the myth that racism only effects minorities, when the truth is that the majority of victims are white. |
It affects the white community far less. I wouldn't disagree that racism is racism is racism though, and it's not just whites who can be racist.
| Quote: |
| Many, many times. I went to a school that was about 40% Asian, and many of them would blame all of their woes on 'racism'. If they failed a test, were treated badly or were disciplined by a teacher, the race card would quickly come into play. |
I do wonder how many seriously believe it, rather than just being kids seeing what they can get away with.
| Quote: |
| I have also heard such people use this excuse when they did not get a job. Rather than look at their own shortcomings, they immediately blame white society and 'institutional racism' |
There are many studies, including the one I linked to, that prove between equally qualified white and ethnic minority applicants, the whites are far more likely to get an interview. If that's not institutional racism, please explain what the hell it is!
The fact that there IS institutional racism does give the lazy a good excuse, but it also stops others in the community realising their true potential.
| Quote: |
| and for such ill feeling the blame rests squarely at the doors of people such as yourself, who display a perverse kind of racism when you treat minorities like children who can never be held accoutable for anything. |
I'm now convinced you don't really read anything I write, but caricature my position into one you feel comfortable defending against. Shame, really. :/
| Quote: |
| You think it is fair that Anthony Walker received a barrage of media coverage whereas the white man beaten to death by Asians was not? Is that really fair? |
There was a fair amount of coverage of the latter, and we all saw it? - but any 17-year-old killed with an axe to the head is likely to get a fair amount of media attention. I'd point out that the young girl (black) and the jeweller (white) shot in Nottingham received a large amount of coverage, too.
| Quote: |
| The media focus is totally biased, and as long as it continues more and more people, who are the victims of ethnic racist crime will begin to sympathise with the BNP when they see such bias. |
I don't see it as so. It feels like you completely ignore the coverage white victims do get. Look at the amount of coverage the murdered WPC is getting right now.
Here's a good list of racially motivated murders since 1991:
http://www.irr.org.uk/2002/november/ak000002.html
What you'll notice from this list is how few of them - of any colour - got widespread media attention.
| Quote: |
| Why is it that statistics which show that minorities are under respresented in certain professions are splashed all over the paper, whereas ethnic over representation in street crime and gang rape are never reported, and if they are, they are quickly hushed up. |
They're frequently reported, if not massively loudly.
Gang rape is a real can of worms, and I don't think it's particularly possible to say anything for sure about it - there's a real lack of research about it. I remember reading this and finding it awful, but the police officer quoted is correct - "nobody gives a toss about gang rape". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Maybe whites blame race for the crime six times as often as blacks? |
Are you serious? You will really stoop to such absurd reasons to explain away racist crime committed against whites?
| Quote: |
| a lot of white people are reporting being victims of racially-motivated crime. Racism probably gets mixed up in that, too! |
Right, so when white people report being victims of racism, they are in fact, being racist!
| Quote: |
| May I remind you that crime levels are higher in these (white areas) areas, too? |
And I presume you have evidence for this do you? I, for one, know that I would rather walk through a poor white area, than say Peckham in the early hours.
| Quote: |
| its effects have been clearly and openly researched and accounted for |
Rubbish. It was a term invented by a white hating former black panther. It is a term which can be used, and which is almost impossible to disprove, hence its usefulness.
| Quote: |
| But no, let's blame the stupid blacks who aren't clever enough to get off their arses and do an honest day's work before cheerfully being stopped and searched by the local police officer, thanking him for the banana joke and heading home to sing the praises of the wonderful white men and men running the country, eh? |
And you accuse me of the old strawman trick!
| Quote: |
| Exactly how many is "all"? |
Kriss Donald, Andrew Yates, Gavin Hopley, and Ross Parker, were all killed in racist attacks by Pakistanis.
| Quote: |
| In what way is it different? |
God you're blind. Type in Anthony Walker to the BBC news search engine. 50 results. Do the same for Andrew Yates. One result. Anthony Walker received blanket media coverage and comments in every paper. That is pretty sickening hyprocrisy and I can't believe you are ignoring it. The Judge in the Andrew Yates case even said it was not a racist attack, even though it clearly was. So, yes, let's have equal treatment for white victims and stop brushing ethnic racist crime under the carpet.
| Quote: |
| that prove between equally qualified white and ethnic minority applicants, the whites are far more likely to get an interview. If that's not institutional racism, please explain what the hell it is! |
That's not institutional racism, but more likely just racism. However, if you apply for a job with a foreign sounding name people may make assumptions about your level of English ability. Is that racism or simply prejudice? I am not defending it, but there are other explanations that do not involve people just not liking minorities. Moreover, I think we should realise that a lot of ill feeling against muslims is often self inflicted. It is not fair that they are tarred with the same brush as some of their more immoderate, bearded co-religionists, but that is simply a fact. Perhaps if they did more to integrate, such anti-muslim feeling would be reduced.
| Quote: |
| It feels like you completely ignore the coverage white victims do get. Look at the amount of coverage the murdered WPC is getting right now. |
No, the media ignores the killings of white victims, as I have demonstrated. The murder of Police Officers is always a top story, and is totally unrelated to the topic of racist crimes, so let's stay on topic.
The problem with the link you gave is that most attacks by whites on blacks are automatically considered racist, whereas similar attacks on whites (remember the guy on the bus stabbed by the black guy, who was throwing chips at him?) are just 'frenzied' attacks, and are rarely described as racist. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hypnotist
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Location: I wish I were a sock
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Maybe whites blame race for the crime six times as often as blacks? |
Are you serious? You will really stoop to such absurd reasons to explain away racist crime committed against whites? |
Why, exactly is it absurd? You don't have any evidence against it. And that's rather my point - the figures only take us so far. There are a host of interpretations we can take of them. If I remember rightly the BCS itself warns against setting too much stock by them.
| Quote: |
| Right, so when white people report being victims of racism, they are in fact, being racist! |
The reports are of crimes regarded as racially motivated. What would a white people need in order to regard a crime as racially motivated? What would a member of an ethnic minority need? How different are the two?
You yourself are claiming further down that when black people are attacked by whites it's automatically racism. The position I stated is no more ridiculous than yours.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| May I remind you that crime levels are higher in these (white areas) areas, too? |
And I presume you have evidence for this do you? I, for one, know that I would rather walk through a poor white area, than say Peckham in the early hours. |
Many, many. Here's one for starters: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4200147.stm
The ACORN surveys make it pretty clear.
And I HAVE walked through Peckham in the early hours, several times. The only problem I've had is with a mentally ill guy who wanted some of my chips. Is it racism that makes you fear the place, or media stereotyping perhaps? Admittedly I wouldn't want to walk through the North Peckham estates at night, but then there are areas where I grew up, all white, where I really wouldn't want to be in the hours of darkness either.
What I'm getting from this is that you're scared of poor black people. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
| Quote: |
| Rubbish. It was a term invented by a white hating former black panther. It is a term which can be used, and which is almost impossible to disprove, hence its usefulness. |
It's perfectly possible to disprove - and indeed to prove, which it has been. Keep your head in the sand if you like, but the fact remains that there is proof that ethnic minorities receive worse service from public and private sector bodies for reasons that cannot be justified.
| Quote: |
| And you accuse me of the old strawman trick! |
Indeed I do - that was a response (not entirely serious) to your strawman. Sorry you missed the point.
| Quote: |
| Kriss Donald, Andrew Yates, Gavin Hopley, and Ross Parker, were all killed in racist attacks by Pakistanis. |
So four then. How many murders were there in the year and a half since those ones occurred?
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| In what way is it different? |
God you're blind. Type in Anthony Walker to the BBC news search engine. 50 results. Do the same for Andrew Yates. One result. Anthony Walker received blanket media coverage and comments in every paper. That is pretty sickening hyprocrisy and I can't believe you are ignoring it. The Judge in the Andrew Yates case even said it was not a racist attack, even though it clearly was. So, yes, let's have equal treatment for white victims and stop brushing ethnic racist crime under the carpet. |
Type Quadir Ahmed in - there's no record at all of his death. Or try Bapishankar Kathirgamamathan - no news story there at all. Yes, Anthony Walker got blanked media coverage - beause of the dramatic way he was murdered, and the similarity of the case in the media's eyes to SL. As I've said and demonstrated, most racist attacks - no matter what the colour combination - do not get a great deal of media attention.
Maybe your search results would be better if you searched for his actual name - "Christopher Yates". Oddly even more results pertaining to the case return if you search for "Yates murder".
The list of most wanted you yourself posted, with three of the men on there wanted in connection with the murder of PC Sharon Beshenivsky, shows just how "under the carpet" such incidents are being brushed.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| that prove between equally qualified white and ethnic minority applicants, the whites are far more likely to get an interview. If that's not institutional racism, please explain what the hell it is! |
That's not institutional racism, but more likely just racism. |
You seem not to understand what institutional racism is:
The collective failure of an organisation to provide an appropriate and professional service to people because of their colour, culture or ethnic origin. It can be seen or detected in processes, attitudes and behaviour which amount to discrimination through unwitting prejudice, ignorance, thoughtlessness and racist stereotyping which disadvantage minority ethnic people.
That clearly applies to the case above.
| Quote: |
| However, if you apply for a job with a foreign sounding name people may make assumptions about your level of English ability. Is that racism or simply prejudice? I am not defending it, but there are other explanations that do not involve people just not liking minorities. |
How is prejudice about someone due to their race or racial origin not racism?
I'm not saying that racism is "not liking minorities". In fact, I don't know anyone who is. Where did that come from?
| Quote: |
| Moreover, I think we should realise that a lot of ill feeling against muslims is often self inflicted. It is not fair that they are tarred with the same brush as some of their more immoderate, bearded co-religionists, but that is simply a fact. Perhaps if they did more to integrate, such anti-muslim feeling would be reduced. |
No, it's not fair. Why should it be a fact, exactly? Because it's ok to be a bigot?
We've discussed before their level of integration - I agree that they should do more, but not that the onus is completely on them.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| It feels like you completely ignore the coverage white victims do get. Look at the amount of coverage the murdered WPC is getting right now. |
No, the media ignores the killings of white victims, as I have demonstrated. The murder of Police Officers is always a top story, and is totally unrelated to the topic of racist crimes, so let's stay on topic. |
You haven't demonstrated it at all - otherwise, explain why the people named above got less coverage than Christopher Yates. That white victim, although getting less coverage than one ethnic minority victim, got substantially more coverage than several others. The case proves nothing.
| Quote: |
| The problem with the link you gave is that most attacks by whites on blacks are automatically considered racist, whereas similar attacks on whites (remember the guy on the bus stabbed by the black guy, who was throwing chips at him?) are just 'frenzied' attacks, and are rarely described as racist. |
Utter, utter rubbish. The racist motive - or lack thereof - of each case is clearly marked on that list, including for the white victims. And as for Richard Whelan - there's no evidence it was a racist attack. It sounds from the reports like the attacker had been harrassing all the passengers prior to the attack. Interestingly the trial was due to have started at the Old Bailey a fortnight ago, but it doesn't seem to be being reported. Wonder if it was delayed.
Last edited by hypnotist on Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
