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Hwang may have faked some research

 
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:02 am    Post subject: Hwang may have faked some research Reply with quote

The Koreans will go nuts if this proves true (though I seriously doubt that it is).

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/01/051201101746.fo6pbeyr.html
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one is a puzzler. It isn't evident why MBC is out to get Hwang, but it seems as if they are.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
This one is a puzzler. It isn't evident why MBC is out to get Hwang, but it seems as if they are.


Why was SBS out to get ESL teachers? It all goes back to the government. Anything to hang the government with... This is a government that has gone on record that it is anti-press.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why was SBS out to get ESL teachers? It all goes back to the government. Anything to hang the government with... This is a government that has gone on record that it is anti-press.


This does not compute.

#1. ESLers are not Koreans. There is a certain logic to a member of the Korean media attacking non-Koreans for preying on Koreans. Hwang is a Korean hero. Nobel Prize material.

#2. Hwang is not a member of the government, and as far as I know, isn't connected to it in any way. Smearing him doesn't affect the governing party. Am I missing something?
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
Why was SBS out to get ESL teachers? It all goes back to the government. Anything to hang the government with... This is a government that has gone on record that it is anti-press.



This does not compute.

#1. ESLers are not Koreans. There is a certain logic to a member of the Korean media attacking non-Koreans for preying on Koreans. Hwang is a Korean hero. Nobel Prize material.

#2. Hwang is not a member of the government, and as far as I know, isn't connected to it in any way. Smearing him doesn't affect the governing party. Am I missing something?


As well, Roh Moo-Hyun has gone on record as saying that the reaction against MBC is overblown. Hard to see why he would take their side if MBC's critique of Hwang is a proxy attack on the government. More likely, he would avoid making direct statements, while giving a wink and a nod to the protestors(as during the "schoolgirls" outrage).
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya-ta Boy wrote:
Quote:
Why was SBS out to get ESL teachers? It all goes back to the government. Anything to hang the government with... This is a government that has gone on record that it is anti-press.


This does not compute.

#1. ESLers are not Koreans. There is a certain logic to a member of the Korean media attacking non-Koreans for preying on Koreans. Hwang is a Korean hero. Nobel Prize material.

#2. Hwang is not a member of the government, and as far as I know, isn't connected to it in any way. Smearing him doesn't affect the governing party. Am I missing something?


The government sets education policy. The government is behind the stem cell center. Problems with both can be laid at the feet of the government. The media, which doesn't have a great relationship with the current government, wouldn't pass up a chance to lay these problems, ultimately, at the feet of the government. The stem cell center was a huge photo op for Roh. Now it's so much egg on his face.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
wouldn't pass up a chance to lay these problems, ultimately, at the feet of the government.



Methinks you have been listening to Rush Limbaugh too much.
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Paji eh Wong



Joined: 03 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"The experiment was reviewed and confirmed by Science through very strict processes, If we cannot believe it, what other journals can we believe," Lee Jyung-Ryul, a member of the team, was quoted as saying.


Yeah, who do you trust? MBC or the journal Science? Let me think carefully about this.


As far as SBS vs English teachers, I always assumed that the attacks originated from the government as part of their program to curb private education spending.
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Octavius Hite



Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mystery deepens:

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200512/200512010015.html

Quote:
Key Stem Cell Researcher Vanishes

Prof. Ahn Cu-rie, a close collaborator of stem cell pioneer Hwang Woo-suk, leaves Incheon International Airport for the U.S. on Thursday afternoon.

Stem Cell Hub to Get Emergency Management Team
Support for Cloning Pioneer Still Growing
Egg Cell Scandal Shows Need For Clear Rules
MBC Team Charges Stem Cell Research ��a Sham��
Roh Tries to Calm Outcry Over MBC Report
MBC to Air Follow-Up Expose of Stem Cell Pioneer
Bad Marks All Round in Hwang Scandal
Stem Cell Hub's Collaboration Hopes Fade
Hwang Collaborator Demanded Share in Stem Cell Patent

With one of the core members of Seoul National University professor Hwang Woo-suk's research team stationed at the University of Pittsburgh disappearing, emergency alert has been initiated because of fears of a possible leak of stem cell technology.
With this alert, key members of Hwang's team have abruptly left for the University of Pittsburgh, adding yet another level of tension to the saga.

"For the last two weeks we have been unable to contact Park Eul-soon, one of the members of the team that was stationed at the University of Pittsburgh to work�� with Hwang��s erstwhile collaborator Gerald Schatten there, an insider with the SNU team said. ��The whole atmosphere coming from the U.S. team is strange.�� Schatten last month publicly severed ties with Hwang over ethical flaws in the team��s procurement of human egg cells.

Park was originally supposed to return to Korea on Nov. 17 ��but for some reason gave the impression that she intended to remain in the U.S.," the insider said. "We are looking into the situation.�� On the same day, SNU Prof. Ahn Cu-rie and Prof. Yoon Hyun-soo from Hanyang University caught a Korean Air flight to Chicago. The two professors are scheduled to fly on to Pittsburgh on Friday.

Park is a researcher who holds knowledge of key techniques for the removal of an egg cell��s nucleus and transferring the nucleus of somatic cell into the egg cell. The researcher made a key contribution to the extraction of a stem cell line from the world's first cloned human embryo, the subject of a Hwang article in Science. The researcher was then dispatched to collaborate with Prof. Schatten's research team at the University of Pittsburgh. Park also played a crucial role in generating cloned monkey embryos.

But it was the fact that Park donated her own ova for the 2003 project that was at the heart of the current scandal that led to Hwang��s resignation from all official posts.

If the researcher wants to stay in a U.S. university to collaborate with the local team instead of returning to Korea, there is likely to be concern over the possible leak of key technical knowledge.

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rok_the-boat



Joined: 24 Jan 2004

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can scholars in a university leak knowledge? Are they not supposed to PUBLISH it?
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The GNP is defending Hwang's methods, casting further doubt on the idea that the attack on Hwang was an attack on Roh.

Quote:
Even if Korean stem cell pioneer Hwang Woo-suk got eggs from his junior researchers, it raises no ethical or, needless to say, legal concerns, according to a lawmaker.

Rep. Kim Hee-jung from the main opposition Grand National Party made the point in an interview with The Korea Times. She works for the Science, Technology, Information and Telecommunications Committee of the National Assembly, which overseas biotechnology in the country.



http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200511/kt2005111517292310160.htm
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arg!

This story is interesting to me and it is frustrating that the Korean media doesn't do a better job reporting on it. One question I have is about the 'disappeared' researcher in Pennsylvania. Did she really disappear or just stop all contact with the media? Those are not the same things. Then I want to know why two more researchers have left for the Great Satan.

A little investigative journalism is in order. Thank you very much.

Here is an example of poor reporting on the Chosun Ilbo:

Quote:
Fresh Hwang Report Lands MBC in Hot Water Again

MBC provoked fresh ire from supporters of cloning pioneer Hwang Woo-suk on Thursday night when its flagship ��News Desk�� reported more allegations against the geneticist. The broadcaster earlier suffered mass cancellation of advertising during its ��PD Diary�� program after the current affairs show reported in depth on ethical flaws in procurement of human egg cells for Hwang��s research.


What allegations were made? The article does not say. It reports on the companies withdrawing advertising won from MBC and the decline in numbers of viewers when the program shows a story related to Hwang.

Arg, again, I say! Arg! Arg! Arg!
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following is an opinion piece from today's Chosun Ilbo. It sheds some light on this story by making clear the ideology of the critics and defenders. It still doesn't explain the connection. But it is a start.


A Witch Hunt of Ordinary People by Kim Dae-joong

Korean society witnessed an unusual phenomenon when MBC��s "PD Diary" attacked cloning pioneer Hwang Woo-suk: the nation's leading left-wing media outlets and progressively inclined people were not only united in their defense of the program��s reporting, they even sided with its Hwang Woo-suk bashing.

Before MBC apologized, the Hankyoreh said a considerable portion of the report was true, and labeled criticism of the reporting a "witch hunt." They were scornful of people who accused the program of treason by criticizing Hwang and his team. President Roh Moo-hyun was along the same lines in an article posted on the Choeng Wa Dae website, where he welcomed the Hankyoreh reporting and said he felt uncomfortable at seeing the PD Diary so widely attacked.

An OhMyNews reporter, after criticizing Prof. Hwang as "having repeatedly lied to conceal the facts," asked back, "Are we really democratized after having for so long been influenced by arguments that justify dictatorship in the name of development?" One article went as far as defining the public sentiment toward ��PD Diary�� as a combination of "fanatical nationalism" and a "results-are-everything ideology." A senior official in the Democratic Labor Party said nothing was wrong with the ��PD Diary�� reporting, which was timely, and likened women who offered to donate ova for stem cell research to "chickens on a poultry farm."

Then there were the usual suspects among the civic groups. Those attending a forum sponsored, among others, by the Citizen's Coalition for Democratic Media on Thursday persisted in defending the MBC show. They detected "a queer call to keep mum about the truth in the name of the national interest," and said the very spirit of journalism had come under attack. ��The ��PD Diary�� reporting was fully justified in raising ethical issues; better now than never"

Most ordinary citizens were puzzled. What is in it for MBC, they wondered. Is it so disagreeable for us to be proud of Prof. Hwang when he has emerged as our first world-class scientist in a long time? Of course, they felt, Hwang should be censured if it turns out that he fabricated results intentionally. But if there were errors in procedure, couldn��t the producers have the kindness to point them out quietly so they can be corrected?

The suspicions of ordinary people, then, focus on the real motives of the Hwang-bashers and the defenders of ��PD Diary,�� and on whether the two are not pulling on the same string. Globally, leftist movements tend to be concerned about the environment, abortion, the death penalty, the gap between rich and poor, union causes, student causes -- and bioethics. The unique features of the Korean left wing, in addition, are opposition to Seoul National University, the capital��s wealthier districts, privilege, conglomerates and America. South Korea's leftist movement also likes to stress that we are ��one nation,�� with all the pro-North Korean sentiment that implies.

Ordinary common sense may not tell us how these are related to the Hwang Woo-suk affair. But a clue is provided by OhMyNews, when it links justifying dictatorship for the sake of development with blind belief in the national interest and the consequent abandonment of due process: there you get a glimpse of a mindset that regards defending Hwang Woo-suk as a product of vested interests or a remnant of dictatorship. It is not for nothing that a reader warned OhMyNews against "looking at the Hwang Woo-suk affair under the tenet of classical progress theory that medical technology, monopolized capital and the state all collude with one another."

An OhMyNews reporter likened criticism of ��PD Diary�� with the Nazis and Japanese imperialism, which made it nothing but ��totalitarianism�� in the spirit of the ��dictatorship of the past." But such statements in themselves are intolerant and censure differing views in an extreme way.

The greatest loss of face has been the president��s. In the image of him when MBC issued a formal apology after he had just defended it, we can read the embarrassment of the entire progressive wing, who failed to read ordinary citizens�� ordinary minds.

The majority of ordinary citizens and Internet users who harbor affection toward Prof. Hwang may have played a key role in the last presidential election, rejecting ��dictatorship�� and bringing us the current government. These ordinary people who are indignant at ��PD Diary�� and its disparaging of Prof. Hwang are also the people who thronged the Gwanghwamun intersection to restore their pride in Korean football.

In other words, the national interest is rooted in our will and efforts to defend it; it is not a cliquish settlement of accounts to get a particular result. If the ruling forces now even take to bashing ordinary people, they are going too far.

***

What I can figure out so far:

A TV investigative journalism program used threats of physical violence and other nasty things to pressure members of Hwang's group into calling into question the science of the research. (Why they would do that is still a mystery.)

In outrage, many people came out in a display of nationalistic pride in defense of Hwang, having vigils and cyber support pages.

The progressives (leftists anywhere else, but the PC term of choice in Korea is progressive) then came out in defense of the media, saying the nationalists were being too nationalistic in their criticism of the critics.

There is something really peculiar going on with this story. For one thing, it lacks the normal 'bash the foreigner' angle.
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On the other hand



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is something really peculiar going on with this story. For one thing, it lacks the normal 'bash the foreigner' angle.


Probably that's because the only foreigner you could possibly bash in all of this is Schatten. And even the most ardent nationalist can probably figure out that there's no point in bashing Schatten when Hwang himself has already admitted that Schatten was right.

As well, it was Korean reporters who sealed Hwang's fate. So that kind of complicates the "Us vs. Them" angle of it. Not that the Chosun Ilbo isn't giving that a stab.

Quote:
Most ordinary citizens were puzzled. What is in it for MBC, they wondered. Is it so disagreeable for us to be proud of Prof. Hwang when he has emerged as our first world-class scientist in a long time? Of course, they felt, Hwang should be censured if it turns out that he fabricated results intentionally. But if there were errors in procedure, couldn��t the producers have the kindness to point them out quietly so they can be corrected?


That final sentence has to be one of the most naive things I've ever read, especially as it was written by a journalist. Like, what exactly is this guy's understanding of how investigative journalism works?

The writer seems to be doing what I worried the pro-Hwang crowd would do, ie. using MBC's snafu on the "fraud" story to sweep the earlier "ova procurement" violations under the carpet.

Quote:
Most ordinary citizens were puzzled. What is in it for MBC, they wondered. Is it so disagreeable for us to be proud of Prof. Hwang when he has emerged as our first world-class scientist in a long time?


Fact is, Hwang's standing as a world-class scientist was already damaged severely by the first story. But the writer makes it sound as if he'd still be the international golden boy were it not for MBC's dirty tricks on the second. Whereas the reality is that if he hadn't been unethically procuring eggs, he shouldn't have any difficulty being rehabilitated once the second story was discredited.

I also think the writer might be overestimating the degree to which he speaks for "ordinary people". I've discussed this issue several times in class, and opinion was decidedly mixed. Quite a few students defended MBC's right to air the allegations. But then, these are just a bunch of left-wing, SNU-hating Gwangjuites, so whadda they know, eh?

Speaking of which: The SNU angle was interesting, but strikes me as a diversionary tactic. Okay, sure my wife showed up at work with a black eye uesterday, but dammit, all the people complaining about it just hate me because I have a big expensive car!! Maybe so, but your wife still showed up at work with a black eye.

Anyway, nice to see that the right-wing also has its own brand of mindless nationalism.
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